What happens when you don't get along with your metamours? Or perhaps one of your metamours doesn't like you and you feel stuck in the middle. Today, we cover some of the struggles you might face in your polyamorous relationship(s). Things won't always go perfect, so we cover ways on how to properly deal with them and communicate with your partner about it too.
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Multiamory was created by Dedeker Winston, Jase Lindgren, and Emily Matlack.
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Emily: This episode of the Multiamory podcast is brought to you by Quip modern oral care delivered. For a free toothbrush head refill, go to tryquip.com/multiamory.
Jase: I feel like the irony there though is that at the same time that we have this cultural script about your partners partner being someone you don't like, that at the same time, we have this image of the kitchen table polly where you and all of your partners and your partners partners all get along and everyone's great. We hear those stories and I think sometimes can feel very guilty or feel very bad if that's not the experience we're having.
Emily: If you're happy with the same old ways of dating--
Dedeker: You enjoy sucking at communication--
Jase: You have no desire to improve your romantic life, then our podcast might not be for you.
Dedeker: You want some out of the box ideas to deepen your current relationships.
Emily: Broaden your sexual horizons.
Dedeker: Develop a better understanding of yourself.
Emily: Or learn more about non-monogamy.
Jase: Then you've come to the right place. I'm Jase.
Emily: I'm Emily.
Dedeker: I'm Dedeker.
Jase: This is the Multiamory podcast.
Jase: On this episode of the Multiamory podcast, we're talking about what to do about metamour problems. Sometimes you love them, sometimes they're your least favorite person in the world but if you are polyamorous, you need to at least learn to live with metamours. In this episode, we're going to be giving you tips and tricks for dealing with metamours. You don't like dealing with metamours who don't like you, and how to talk to your partners when you're the one stuck in the middle between some metamours who don't get along. A lot of good stuff in this, this topic comes up so often.
Dedeker: We've all been we've all been there in various capacities and playing various roles and all these various dynamics between metamours.
Emily: Something that you pointed out, Dedeker, when were doing the research for this episode, you were feverishly looking through our episodes saying, "Well, we must have done this like a year ago or a couple months ago and we totally haven't". I guess to some degree we we've talked about it but not fully done an episode on this. We know it is a fundamental.
Dedeker: We've touched upon the subject definitely many, many times over the course of many episodes. I think the last time we actually did an episode fully dedicated to this was Episode 55, which is many, many moons ago. We were so young and innocent back then.
Emily: You got a lot more practice that this particular issue as well now.
Dedeker: Why disliking metamours or having metamours dislike you.
Emily: Sure or being in the middle of it.
Dedeker: Also a lot of practice a good metamour relationships and-
Emily: That is also true.
Dedeker: - having your partners get along. I think we've all had a lot of practice of things also feeling good as well that gives us a good contrast to when things are not feeling so good between metamours and partners.
Jase: If this is something that you have struggled with, this is something that comes up a ton in the Patreon group. This is a subject that comes up a lot. It's not always just like, I don't like it, there's always nuance to it. There's often subtlety to it. It is a real issue. Then the thing I think that's really interesting about it, and I find this more and more with a lot of things within polyamory and non-monogamy is that we end up with these sorts of relationships in these situations that seem very unique. Like the idea of a metamour. For most people, they're like, that's a super unique thing that doesn't really exist anywhere else.
It's hard to find resources or it's hard to get a good perspective on how do I think about this. Then when you start to really look at it, we actually do have relationships very similar to this. If they're unique and they're also not. What I mean by that with metamour is we essentially experienced the same thing with our partners, best friends-
Emily: With family.
Jase: - or with our partner's family that...
Emily: A lot of this can pretend to that as well for sure.
Jase: If there is something where you're looking for perspective or other advice on this, that's actually a great place to look is because that experience is not new. That's not a unique experience of having a friend who doesn't get along with me, or my partner's friends doesn't get along with me or I don't like them or having trouble getting along with a partner's family or something like that. It is this really interesting thing where it's like unique and it's also not unique at the same time, this metamour relationship.
Dedeker: Because we do have such a long precedence of when you get into a relationship with somebody or when you marry somebody or whatever, you inherit all that person's relationships as well their existing relationships, as well as any new relationships. You're still connected to them. There's definitely a big backlog of advice out there for handling that thing because it's not always like a smooth transition. You don't always like everyone who is in your partner's life before you and you don't always like everyone who enters your partner's life after your relationship started.
That doesn't mean that it's necessarily like an impossible situation to work through. I think it's just that with the metamour thing, we already come to it with these really negative cultural scripts around what that relationship should be. We already come with these very negative scripts preloaded up this idea of this is definitely going to be a competitive relationship, or resentful relationship or there's no way that the two of you are on the same team like you have to be enemies, you have to be competing for your partner's time or something like that.
I think because we come preloaded with a lot of those notions, and seeing that played out over and over again, like in our movies and TV shows and stuff like that, that that's why it can be so easy for like if someone dislikes me or if I dislike them that it goes down the slippery slope of like, all the bad stuff, the competition and this extreme negativity. That maybe it wouldn't with like a family relationship, but I guess it's what you're saying, Jase. It's like a Venn diagram, in my mind of like, the ways that is unique in the ways it's really actually quite similar to other relationships.
Jase: I feel the irony there, though, is that at the same time, that we have these cultural script about your partner's partner, being someone you don't like that at the same time, we have this image of sort of the kitchen table polly, where you and all of your partners and your partners' partners all get along and everyone's great. We hear those stories and I think sometimes can feel very guilty or feel very bad if that's not the experience we're having.
Dedeker: That's true.
Jase: Whereas on the other hand, it's like a stereotype that your mother-in-law doesn't like you or something. That's such a stereotype that if that is your experience, you're like, "Well, that's normal. That's life".
Dedeker: That's mother-in-laws.
Emily: What we're trying to say is that this episode will have something for everyone, regardless of whether you're in a relationship with multiple metamours or not. This can still retained to other aspects of your life for sure. Let's get into it.
Jase: Let's do it.
Emily: We're going to have three separate scenarios that probably at one point or another, all of you out there may have been in. The first scenario is going to be the one in which you do not like your metamour, or your partner's friend or your partner's mother or whatever. This first scenario is definitely one that I've probably been in before.
Dedeker: I've definitely been in.
Emily: It's a challenging one. Absolutely. It's a good one that if you find yourself in, you should probably ask yourself some questions. The first of those questions will be, do I not like this person because I feel like they're smarter, they're funnier, they're prettier, they're sexier or they're somehow better than me. Again, like all of these questions that we're going to ask ourselves in these scenarios are going to be ones that are really good to try to figure out because often like you're going to be bringing your own personal biases into this relationship with your metamour.
It's a good chance for you to check out like, "Am I actually just having some personal insecurities here or do I really find something fundamentally off about my partner's metamour or my partner's partner".
Dedeker: Well, that is a thing that Jase was saying that on the other side of things that we can see these idyllic kitchen table poly situations where like, no one's feeling jealous and no one's feeling secure. It all feels great. Then that can engender the sense of like, "If I do feel insecure, I can't be open about that, or I can't acknowledge that because it's that's newbie stuff. I'm not supposed to feel insecure. I'm not supposed to be comparing myself to this person".
I've definitely found for myself, it can get to this can really cognitively shove that part down and just not even acknowledge that what's going on is I do feel like, "This person is better than me in some way," I don't even let myself entertain that thought because I'm like, oh well, I'm way too much of an evolved poly person to do that.
Emily: Exactly. I would never, never think that.
Dedeker: Right, exactly. I think that if you ask yourself this question, and if you do realize, I do think that they're smarter or they make a lot more money and like, that doesn't make me feel weird, it doesn't mean that that's the only thing going on. I don't think it's because I think I've seen some people their dislike of their metamour or the issue they have with their metamour, maybe something that is more complex than just I feel insecure around them but maybe that's wrapped up in it.
It's very easy for it to be just dismissed. Like, "Well, this is just you being jealous or this is just you feeling insecure?" I think that's the important thing and asking that question it's not meant to just disregard any other weird feelings you may have about your metamour but understanding that that may be part of what's fueling it.
Emily: I agree with you Dedeker but still is a good opportunity in which to potentially check yourself and say, "Hey, okay. Are my feelings valid or are they actually just wrapped up in my own personal biases and insecurities?"
Dedeker: I know there's that theory floating around and this is a theory that's floating around like outside of the polyamory non-monogamy sphere but this idea that, if you meet someone and you don't like them it's because they reflect back to you some qualities of yourself that you don't like. I thought about that, I don't know if it always holds up, I'm not sure. I think it does probably hold up in some scenarios but I don't think it's necessarily a blanket statement.
Dedeker: Related to that, another question to ask yourself is, is my dislike this person based in the fact that they remind me of someone from my past that I don't like? I think that's a pretty common thing that happens. Is there something about the tone of their voice or about the way that they speak or the things that they're interested in or the way that they style themselves that I'm just like, "I had an experience with someone like that once that left a bad taste in my mouth and now, I'm automatically projecting that onto this person".
Jase: That's interesting to think about that too of like, or does this person remind me of some aspect of myself that I don't like. I think that's something actually we're going to get into more later is this idea of projecting your own thoughts or feelings on to this person. Either your own ones that you do and that you have or your own ones that you've internalized about the way that all men are or all women are or something like that.
Jase: I feel like there's levels to this. I hope we'll get into that a little bit more later. The next one related to that is, do I feel like this partner is too different from me? Does that mean that, if my partner is into this, how could they also be into me?
Dedeker: I've definitely felt that one.
Jase: The two similar or two different, both evoke that same feeling of, "They're going to replace me or wait, how could they be into me if they're also into this person who looks totally different than me or is into totally different things or has a totally different sense of humor than I do or all sorts of things like that."
Emily: I think it's a really good opportunity to remind yourself that polyamory allows you to explore so many different facets of who you are. That for your partner, they may be really interested in something or find something very attractive in something- in someone else that is the quality that you don't have at all. That's completely understandable because it reflects like this impressive new exciting part of them and that really has nothing to do with you.
I think in the moment that can be really difficult to understand and to allow maybe and say, "Okay, this is this all right, it's challenging, it may hurt", but I think it's great that they get this side of themselves filled from this other person. I think that's challenging but it can be the case and something to think about there.
Jase: I feel like with this one I found for myself personally that I've definitely had a lot more peace in my life, the more I've been able to accept that other people can be better than me at things and just let them have that. What I mean is, rather than feeling like, "Well, they are good at this thing, but I've never really had that much of an interest in or spent that much time on, but like now I've got to be focused on that. Or I've got to try to be better at that and compete in every arena, essentially".
Emily: Interesting. There you go.
Jase: I've definitely found and I've even done this in the past with my partners themselves, like you're dating someone and they're into something, you're good at something. It's like, "Well, I've got to be just as good at that thing or better at that thing."
Emily: I'm never going to be as good at languages as the two of you are but that's okay. [crosstalk]
Dedeker: I'm never going to be as good at karaoke and Mario Kart as Emily is.
Emily: I don't know things but you equate, you hold your own for sure.
Dedeker: In which part? In Mario Kart?
Jase: Yes, I knew she was like Mario Kart.
Emily: What was the other one that you said?
Emily: Karaoke, now, you still do. Come on.
Dedeker: I can hold a solid sixth place in both arenas, I believe.
Emily: Oh my Lord.
Jase: Oh gosh. Anyway, I guess that that letting go at like, for example, right now, I have a metamour who even works in the same industry that I do. That could be very easy to fall into this competitive thing of like, "He's worked on a bigger film than I have or right, he works in 3D and I don't as much or something like that." I've just found my life is a lot happier by not worrying about that and being like, "That's awesome." I get to be excited about the fact that he does these things and that he works on these big movies and I don't have to put in the hours involved in working on these movies or whatever it is. Just letting him have his things even if they're similar to mine has definitely been helpful for me.
Dedeker: I'm going to switch the angle of these this questioning a little bit. You can also ask yourself, does this person have a reputation for treating others badly? This is definitely one to take with a grain of salt I think on the positive side, if you're active in a community of people who are poly friendly or polyamorous or whatever, they can definitely act as a dating pool. Both good and bad thing about communities like that is, gossip travels pretty fast often and gossip in its nature sometimes it's accurate, sometimes it's not. Sometimes it's a little bit of column A, little bit of column B.
If someone has a reputation for treating others badly, I think that then you need to get into some sub-questions, some subcategories of question of like, "Okay, was that something that I heard from someone else? Was that something that I observed that I have a personal experience with this person like witnessing them or directly experiencing them treating me or someone that I know badly? What have I heard or what have I gotten is that fueling my dislike of this person?
Let me tell you, there's definitely people that I've known in the communities that I consider that I'm connected to where it's like if someone that I knew started dating this person, I would definitely be like, "I don't know, red flags, heard some really bad things about this person or have seen this person treat other people really badly." That would definitely be a part of that exploration process of like, "Okay, I know for sure that my reaction to this person is very much fueled by my perception of their reputation".
Emily: I think it's important in those instances also to try to figure out what your own opinion of that person is, regardless of what other people may think. Maybe in those instances, like go out with this person to coffee or something and try to get to know them and try to see like, "Hey, do I agree with that or can I build a separate idea of who I think this person is?"
Dedeker: I guess this idea of giving this person a chance, this feels like such a thing that's like so case specific and it's hard to give broad advice but it seems like I would think that if it's a thing where you've only heard rumors maybe or you just heard gossip, maybe trying to give a chance. I think Emily's suggestion as good as love like giving yourself a chance to humanize this person and form your own.
Emily: Well, I think humanizing people in general is a really good thing to do in a lot of these instances and we've talked about that before.
Jase: I think something else that goes along with this is, even if it's not just gossip, gossip, but say, you heard this from a close friend of yours who dated them and they were like, for example, this person was super pushy and always arguing with me and pressuring me to do things or whatever. That you might be like, "Okay, I've heard this from a reliable source, this is not a good person, therefore, I'm justified in disliking them." However, that doesn't necessarily mean that with someone else that experience would be the same. We've talked about this in the past in terms of like the different ways that people argue or the different ways that people debate or make decisions together.
It's largely based on how their family did it when they were younger, what their role models were for that, but that same person with someone else might not come across as pushy but just like, I'm glad that they stand up for what they want to do too, because so do I. That's how we reach a consensus where we both end up doing what we want because we're both very vocal about what it is we want and we can negotiate that way. Whereas for someone else who's much more accommodating or was raised in a culture- a family culture where you don't do that, you don't like strongly advocate for your needs to them.
That's pushy, and they're always feeling like they're being coerced or pressured into always doing what the other person wants and not them. Even that, even if you have heard these things, even that's not 100% like, yes, this person is bad. That it really does come down to, how does my partner feel about it? How did they feel in this relationship? Not how did someone else feel in this relationship with them.
Emily: Totally. Finally, the last item on this list is one that often happens.
Say think if your partner was dating this person for a while, broke up with them and then gets back together with them. They also have a reputation of maybe treating your partner badly in the past. Ask yourself that, ask yourself like, is that a thing that's coming up for me right now and I automatically don't like them because I know that they had a messy breakup. They're deciding to get back together for whatever reason but I still have my biases regarding that last scenario that they were in together.
That's an interesting one, for sure, and I would still say your partner is allowed to make their own decisions and they're allowed to choose what mountain to die on if they want to be with this person or not, to use my mother's phrase. I think it is important, even though you may be like, "Hey, this ended really badly last time, I don't know if you should do this again." They still have to make that decision for themselves at the end of the day.
Dedeker: That is the tough thing is that you can't- you really can't coerce or force your partner into not entering into a relationship with somebody, people do it, people do it all the time. People find all kinds of creative ways to coerce or manipulate or force their partner to not enter into a relationship but--
Emily: Don't do that, don't do that.
Jase: Not a good thing.
Dedeker: It's not a good regular practice. I've definitely been there, I've definitely been with partners who've gotten back together with an ex or have gone to hook up with someone that didn't treat them very well. It's really hard to feel like, you don't want to be like their mom being like this is going to end badly for you.
Emily: Being like, why are you doing this?
Dedeker: Or why are you doing this yadda, yadda, yadda but you also don't want to see them get hurt again. It's definitely a hard place to live and I think it can manifest as just like a dislike of this person that you know cause some harm to your partner in the past.
Jase: I think something that's going to come up again and again in this discussion is that, at the end of the day, you do have to let your partner make their decisions and trust them to make their decisions. Even if you don't trust them to make good decisions, you still have to trust them to make the decisions anyway. Do you know what I mean? That it is their choice to do that and it is- that is something worth keeping in mind for sure is that you're not their parent. It isn't your job to tell them what they can and can't do or who they can or can't date. I think a lot of people default to that. I think a lot of people get a little parental with their partners sometimes.
Emily: We just wanted to thank Page Turner and their blog, Poly Land for this list because it's a great list. I found it today and loved it so much. I had to include it in this part of the episode. Thanks again for that because you can go actually to their website and check out, I believe it is the article, "Help, I don't like this metamour to my partner dates". Crap, what's the URL? I don't know. Well, look it up.
Dedeker: It's Poly.Land and it's like, if you search for help, I don't like the person that my partner is dating. If you want a more in-depth analysis of each of these questions and I do appreciate what Page writes about this list of questions is essentially, if you're able to answer these questions, it doesn't mean that your feelings are invalid immediately. I feel like none of these are like, "Okay, you answer this question and that means your dislike is automatically absolved or resolved or whatever. This is all just more really helpful exploratory things to help inform the next step or what conversations you may need to have about this person.
Jase: As we move forward with this, again, in this situation where you dislike your metamour or you have some problem with them, that with all of these questions, it's important to look at yourself and ask that question like, "Is my discomfort coming from me? Is it about them? Is it about thoughts I have about my partner?" Or like I mentioned earlier, is it assumptions that I make about what all men or all women are or whomever, all people are like that my partner's dating? Do I assume that all people are manipulative and therefore, I'm going to read that into everything my metamours do? It's exploring those, asking those questions, where is this coming from? What's this really about?
Dedeker: Definitely. I've definitely found that if you're really struggling with the dislike or if you're really struggling with some of these questions, you really can't quite place your finger on exactly what it is. It's really easy for it to be a self-perpetuating cycle, it's really easy. If you have some dislike for your metamour for some reason, it really doesn't matter what the reason is, it's really easy to then start to read into things too much or really come up with some interesting subjects for like, otherwise innocuous seeming text messages or to be able to find and see more evidence that your metamour is a bad person, total confirmation bias.
That's why it can be important to get a third party or get an objective opinion of some kind to talk about what's going on between you and your metamour or like what's going on within you in your dislike of this person. It could be someone like a therapist, it could be a friend who is removed from the situation, doesn't have a stake in the situation but who you trust to be honest with you, even the Patreon group. This happens all the time where people will be like, "My metamour texted me this and I think that it totally shows that they're being really mean and really nasty and really selfish, but what do you all think?"
Sometimes people will be like, "I don't really see that actually, when I read that". Or, "No, actually, I think that is justified for you to think that".
Jase: It can definitely be helpful to get that outside opinion.
Dedeker: Because you can- if you've already pre-formed an opinion about someone, it's very easy for it to just color every other interaction that you have with them. It's, first of all, something important to bear in mind as you interact with this person but then also good to get another set of eyes on the situation. Because let me tell you, there have been so many times with friends actually who have some tiff with somebody where they'll show me a text message and exchange and be like, "Can you believe that they said this?" I read it and I'm like, "I can't see if the part that's like-- [crosstalk] they just said, they're going to be late to like coffee.
I don't understand because I'm not in this situation, it's hard for me to understand what's actually going on.
Emily: I’ve shown you emails and various things and it's good to get your opinion and be like, hey, and also show me things that I haven't even thought of before and that's very nice as well. It is really important in these scenarios and we're going to talk about this later as well that you should not be bad mouthing your metamour to your partner. That's very important for variety of reasons but it also puts your partner in a shitty situation where you're like, "Well, I'm hearing about my loved one in a bad light, my other partner and that blows." Be considerate of that and be understanding that, your partner is not going to want to hear that from you even if you are having a hard time in these scenarios.
Dedeker: I've made this mistake many times.
Emily: For sure. Absofreakinlutely.
Dedeker: The last time that I can think of, when I was in a period of my life in relationships where I was having a really hard time with a particular metamour. I did find some solace in being able to vent to other people. That's what it's good to-- Especially also venting-- I've vented to the two of you but I also been to the people totally removed from the situation. That was arguably the best feeling venting, was just having someone who has no stake, that I can literally- comparatively play the poor baby game that they talked about the ethical slut. I could just be like, and this person does this and then they did this and then, I really don't like the way they do that.
I'm like, "Yes, gosh" They can purely just support you and your issues with this person. I think I didn't do that enough because I definitely also ended up mouthing off to my partner and saying some really mean things in the spur of the moment about this person because of my frustration. It's definitely something where it's like, in that particular scenario that I'm thinking of, there were some things that were justified and my dislike of this person but there were also some things that were really not but unfortunately, both of those came out of my mouth multiple times.
It's like the toothpaste thing, once you squeeze it out you can't put it back in. It's out there.
Jase: I think also even or maybe, especially if you do feel like you have pretty legitimate concerns about your partner's partner and how they're treating them and stuff like that, that talking badly about them is probably the least effective thing you could do to actually get your partner to change their mind and still like you at the end of it. What you're actually going to end up is a situation where your partner is now resenting you because they're not feeling good around you. It's going to invalidate any very real concerns that you might have about this other person. Really trying to avoid this at all costs is so important.
I also probably around a similar time that Dedeker was struggling with this, I also struggled with this too. When I finally made that realization, that really changed things a lot in my relationship and also just in how in the future and in the present, I've handled that situation. I've just like--
Emily: Often it's just a moment of catharsis for you, whereas like in the big picture, it's not going to be good overall to do that and to be unkind in a way to this decision that your partner is consistently making and still wanting to be with this other person. It's like you said, invalidating that in a way and that should ache, so just don't do it. Just be the bigger person here and try to be understanding of the situation and think about it, think about why this is happening and maybe hopefully, what can be done to remedy the situation, so all right.
Jase: With all of this, the last thing we just want to reiterate that it's not about you. Your partner's decision in who else they date is not a reflection of you. It's not about you, it's not your decision to make, you know what I mean? That this is, if you love this person and want to be with this person, part of what comes with that is trusting them to make their own decisions and having their own life. Just remember that. Come back to that when you need to have just like my partner decisions with what they do with other people are not about me.
Dedeker: That's a hard truth to internalize.
Jase: It is tough, but it's important.
Emily: With that, we wanted to move briefly into our ad.
Dedeker: We don't have like just do this. It's like money zone...
Dedeker: We don't have that.
Jase: We're just going to do it.
Dedeker: We'll just do it.
Emily: We do have just a brief moment where we want to talk about ways that you can support our show. The first way is through Patreon and we've talked about that a little bit on this show already because our $5 and up Patreons get the wonderful opportunity of becoming a part of our Patreon only Facebook group, which is an amazing community of, I think most recently we got to 666 members, which, oh man.
Jase: No jokes offended about that.
Emily: Whoa, whoa, whoa.
Dedeker: As of this moment that we're recording, we're on the cusp.
Emily: We're in 665?
Dedeker: We're on the cusp of the antichrist.
Emily: Basically, you got to get in there right this second because then you will be the antichrist and that's awesome.
Dedeker: Well, hopefully by the time this comes out we'll be comfortably past that number.
Emily: I'm assuming we will be by the time this episode airs, but it is a wonderful place in which to talk about things like this that are happening in your life. If you are having an issue with a metamour. If you know that a metamuor is having an issue with you and you don't know how to handle it. If you're stuck in the middle of both of these things, then it is a great place to bounce ideas off of like-minded people and also share like the great things that are happening in your relationship.
We tried to do a post every week about share something awesome that's been happening in your life or in your relationships and that's a great place to look through every single week and like see how well people are doing and it is very uplifting and we love it. Again, if you want to contribute to our show and then go to patreon.com/multiamory and become a Patreon today.
Jase: Also if you want to spread the word and allow more people to hear this stuff and get this information, one of the best ways you can do that besides actually just sharing it with people and reposting it places, is to take a couple minutes and write us a review on iTunes or on Stitcher. The reason why that helps is that it helps us show up higher in search results. It makes us more likely to be featured in the noteworthy section in Apple Podcasts.
When people do come across the show, reading your review about what this show has meant to you or how this show has helped you, might be the thing that convinces them to give it a try. I know that when I have been seeking new podcasts, sometimes there's just one person's review where I'm like, "Yes, nothing they said like, that resonates with me. I'll give this podcast a try." Doing that for us and for this show would be incredibly helpful in growing this community even larger and larger and then also, of course, just sharing it with people being like, "Hey, listen to this show."
Dedeker: All right.
Emily: That's what I tried to do every time I met my job and people talking and they're like, "Wait, are you that? No, that doesn't happen as often and said like--
Dedeker: It happens though.
Jase: It does happen.
Dedeker: It happens multiple times at your work.
Emily: It does happen and it's awesome and then also just talking loudly to my coworkers about the podcasts and then people are like, "What? You do what?"
Jase: That's a good one.
Emily: It's nice.
Dedeker: Can I tell you all my Hallmark story about Quip?
Emily: Yes, what is this?
Dedeker: This story begins about a year ago. Quip has been our sponsor for two years or so now?
Emily: Yes, gosh.
Dedeker: I was home for the holidays and my mom saw my Quip.
Emily: This is a Hallmark story.
Dedeker: Yes. Okay, I was home for the holidays. My mom saw my Quip and she was like--
Emily: My mom has one too now.
Dedeker: Approved by mom.
Jase: You tested, your mother approved.
Dedeker: I was home for the holidays and my mom saw my Quip and was like, "What's that? I want one." I was like, "Well, funnily enough actually they sponsor our podcast." I went and used our own promo code, tryquip.com/multiamory and I ordered a Quip for my mom for her birthday, which is shortly after Christmas and she got it. She loved it. I also like signed up for a subscription. I pay for her subscription to get the refills and stuff like that. As some of you know, my mom and my parents lost everything in the campfire at that wiped out the entire town of Paradise in November and I realized, "She lost her Quip. Her Quip is burned up in the fire."
I was like, "Dang it. Okay, so I guess I got to figure out another Quip for mom." I sent them an email because I was already having to figure out like, "Okay, I got to change the address on the subscription, but they already sent one out. I don't know where it's going to end up". I sent them an email being like, "This is what happened, my mom lost everything. We need to change the address and I'm trying to figure out how to get her a new Quip without signing up for a new subscription, yadda, yadda, yadda".
They were so nice. They gave me a little bit of a discount and they waive the shipping for me so that I could and they like rerouted the shipping of the subscription for me so that I could get mom a replacement Quip without having to sign up for a new subscription. Anyway, I was just like, "Good on you guys Quip. Good on you for being compassionate". It made me feel really good for patronizing them.
Jase: That's awesome.
Emily: That's awesome.
Dedeker: If you want some of that for yourself, again, go to tryquip.com/multiamory. Order Quips for the people that you love, it will help support the show and it'll help keep your teeth clean also it's just a side effect really.
Jase: By using that promo link, tryquip.com/multiamory, you get $10 off your first refill so your first refill will be free.
Jase: Which is red.
Dedeker: How'd you like my Hallmark story?
Jase: That's great.
Dedeker: I've seen Emily a little bit teary.
Jase: That was pretty touching.
Dedeker: Well, I'm working in optioning it to the Hallmark Channel now.
Emily: I think they'd definitely, yes. If they can make an entire movie around Quip-
Dedeker: What would it be called, like Quip?
Emily: - then that will be incredibly impressive.
Dedeker: I'll be home for Quipness? Okay, done.
Emily: You know what? Lester movies have been made about Lester things, so please go for it at Hallmark, but--
Jase: Buy the Hallmark Channel, no less.
Emily: Get Dedeker Winston to write it and you'll be good to go.
Dedeker: Okay, well I'll keep it. Keep your eyes peeled. I'll be home for Quipness this coming Christmas 2020 on the Hallmark Channel.
Jase: All right.
Dedeker: Okay, back to metamours. We just covered all the ins and outs of scenario A, which is where you don't like your metamour for some reason.
Emily: You hate them.
Dedeker: Let's switch things to scenario B, which is that your metamour doesn't like you or again, could be a friend of your partner or their best friend, family member, whoever, but for the purposes of this exercise, we'll just go with they're metamour, but are your metamour or their partner doesn't like you for some reason. There's all kinds of potential things to try on in this scenario and to bear in mind moving forward. It's going to be like some of the same advice that we applied to when you don't like your metamour, doing a lot of examination and stuff like that. However, there are some particular things to this scenario that will be helpful.
Jase: Number one, first of all, is do not use your mutual partner as a go-between. This isn't just so simple as like don't send messages through them, but your mutual partner is probably going to try to do this by default. Not because they think they're being a go-between, but just they're like, well, you're talking about the situation and you're saying like, "It's frustrating. I don't understand why they wouldn't like me over this thing or that doesn't seem fair". They will then go, "Well, I'll talk to them about that. I'll try to mention that to them and see if they can calm down about it or something".
Dedeker: Or your partner coming to you and being like, "Well, they told me that this happened at this party and that then like you said, this thing and so that's why I think that they're upset with you or they don't like you".
Jase: When your partner does this and they will. We're going to get to scenario C where you're the person who's in the middle, but is don't let them do it. Stop them from doing it, ask them not to do it. That means say you're sharing something about how you feel and they go, "I'll try to talk to them about that." Go, "No, no, please don't actually." If that's something that they and I are going to talk about, let us do that, please don't be the go-between, please don't try to relay messages between us. The same thing if it comes back the other way, just be like, "I appreciate what you're trying to do and I know this is important to you, but please don't end up as the go-between between us." This is huge, this is so huge, which is why it's number one on our list here, is right from the start, don't-- it's going to happen a little bit, it just will, that's how humans work, but don't let that become the norm, don't let that become a thing you rely on or a thing that becomes their full-time job.
Emily: The second one is going to be, if you can, try to talk to your metamour about this, about this issue that might be happening if you know what the issue is, even if you don't. Maybe try to ask them, "Hey, what's going on here?" This can look a number of ways. You can maybe ask them to go grab coffee with you, to go for a walk, to even have a Skype call, especially if they're in a different part of the country from you. We would say that texting is okay but it does limit the face-to-face interaction that you have with this person and a lot of the nuance and subtext that can happen from having a face-to-face conversation can be lost. We don't necessarily recommend that.
Also in these moments, practice non-violent communication. I think it can be challenging because people really want to be liked. If you know that you metamour, which is someone really important to your partner, doesn't like you, this can really suck and really be challenging and put you in a position where you want to know why and where you want to fix it. If that is the case for you, then you can try to employ these specific things and try to talk to them again in a very non-violent communication way.
Jase: Dedeker, Emily, can you talk to us about what does that look like, what's that mean?
Dedeker: First of all, I will just direct people to just do your homework on NVC, there's plenty of resources out there to talk about non-violent communication, what the different steps are. I think what I feel, my opinion of what's most important here when confronting a metamour is to use the first step of NVC which is the stating an observation rather than an interpretation. That means it can be like, "Hey, I've noticed that the last three times that I've sent you a message on social media, you haven't responded," for instance, or a significant amount of time passes by without a response, or it could be like, "Hey, I noticed last week when we were at that event together, I came up to talk to you and you weren't making eye contact or you would move away." This can be really tricky but basically, the idea is to just purely state what you observed rather than it being, "Hey, you're ignoring me on social media," or, "Hey, you were really rude to me at that party," or whatever.
It's just going to set up for just a much better conversation around what the actual behavior is. It could be a thing where it's like you're at that party, you saw the way that your metamour behaved and to you, you were like, "They must have some problem with me." Maybe to them they're like, "I had terrible nausea that night." Like, "I was trying to avoid all social interaction." You don't know. Sometimes it's that simple, sometimes it's not that simple. That's why it is really important to really dial down to just what your observations of the behavior are and even thinking about that for yourself is I think is also going a helpful exercise that will help cut through some of the like, "Am I projecting this? Is this something that actually happened? Am I making assumptions? Am I doing this based on what I think my partners told me about what's going on." All those things.
Jase: Another thing I want to point out about this too is, I think the way we've been talking about it so far is under the assumption that you and your metamour have already had some communication with each other, but sometimes there hasn't really been that yet. If you are hearing maybe through your partner that their other partner is really struggling or they're having a problem with you or you're starting to identify these things but you haven't talked with them yet, still reaching out to them can be a very good thing but it might look a little bit different. Instead of the first message or the first contact from you being like, "Hey, what's the deal?"
Jase: A place to start could just be from a place of, "Hey, I just wanted to reach out so that you have a way to get in touch with me if you need to." Even making it like, "Hey this is also for you. I'm not trying to control you or manipulate the situation but just in case you want to be able to talk to me about anything." If there's someone who is in an existing relationship already, it can also be helpful to just acknowledge the fact that, "I really respect your relationship with our mutual partner, I think it's great and I just wanted to make that clear that I have no interest in doing anything against-
Emily: Sabotaging that.
Jase: -that relationship, that I respect it and I just want to be sure that that's clear. Hopefully, you and I can coordinate. If there's special events or special things that you want to do, we can communicate about that so that we're not both competing for making plans on the same days or something." Just putting those things in place, sometimes can just solve it right there, sometimes. Obviously, sometimes it won't. That definitely is a helpful thing to put out there. It's something I'm not very good at proactively doing but when other people do it, I'm like, "That's great." I really appreciate that that person did that thing or that my partner did that with my other partner. It's nice to see that and it can be a really helpful thing.
Dedeker: Yes, definitely. Another thing to keep in mind is to just take care if you're going to make the choice to talk to your partner about your metamour not liking you. Kind of the same caveats that we gave at the beginning, that it's like you really want to avoid trying to make your partner into the middleman or into the mouthpiece or the interpreter or the go-between. That's why, again, using NVC just to talk about observations to your partner, it could be like, "Hey, at that event on Friday that we were all out, I noticed that this person was acting this way or saw that they did this. I was wondering if they were okay or if there's anything going on." Things like that. Just basically anything that you can do to avoid making your partner into your metamour's representative or their defense attorney. You don't want to end up in a conversation where you're like, "Were they feeling this way?" Your partner's like, "I don't know. Maybe they were feeling angry about this thing," and you're like, "Why would they be angry about that thing?" and they're like, "I don't know, maybe it was this." Then you're having a conversation about what was going on with your metamour when your metamour's not even there to actually talk about what's going inside themselves. Just avoiding that basically and just really taking care in the way that you choose to talk to your partner about it.
Jase: I think that's another one that's so easy to slip into that. The same as having them be the go-between is to slip into the partner having to defend you to each other between the metamours. Really be mindful of that. Be so mindful.
Emily: Yes, for sure.
Jase: Number four on our list for this one is to kill them with kindness, is to be apologetic when necessary and be understanding when necessary. This one can be challenging when pride gets in the way especially once it's gotten to the point of feeling sort of adversarial or feeling like this person's always attacking me, why would I apologize to them if they're the one being a jerk. I've been there, yes, that's a hard thing to do. This can also be helpful if you're requesting something from your metamour. For example, I've got a message once from one of my metamours, metaphors, [laughs] from one of my metamours-
Emily: My metaphorical metamour.
Jase: - where we were trying to make plans with our mutual partner and he started a request by being apologetic and like, "Hey, I'm really sorry if this messes with your plans but I actually really wanted to have this time with her. I don't mean that to be anything against you. I know you made these plans." Just started from that place, I was like, "No, that's totally fine." I appreciated that he wasn't just like, "Hey, I need this," but still was asking for what he wanted. I was like, "Yes, of course, I get that. I can change my plans easily. That's no problem." Anyway, that can definitely be helpful, of just approaching it with kindness and gentleness and maybe sort of apologeticness and understanding.
Emily: Yes, I think that goes a really way. People are more likely to be like, "Well, fuck, okay. I can't be a dick to this person because they are being really understanding of me in this moment and that means something." In these very tight-knit communities of non-monogamous, just any type of people that even friend communities that know each other quite well, sometimes there are these moments where people get gossiped about and it's shitty, it's not okay in my opinion at all. If you know that people are out there gossiping about you, try to take a high--
Jase: Are you talking metamours?
Emily: Yes, exactly. I mean anyone but specifically in this scenario, yes, that your metamour is gossiping about you, try to take the high road and don't choose to do the same thing to them. Don't try to gossip about them back to the rest of your community or people who might be on your side about this particular thing, because that's just going to breed intolerance and unkindness towards one another. Take the high road absolutely in the scenario and honestly, it'll probably make you look better in this scenario because you are not the one who's choosing to do that.
Dedeker: It's just a lot more of obfuscating the scenario and creating more diversions away from there being direct communication between the two of you.
Emily: For sure, it's shitty to do all around.
Dedeker: Now, we've definitely seen a lot of these scenarios where it's like, maybe your metamour is straight-up being hostile toward you or saying hurtful things to you or it's just really not a pleasant interaction or a harmful interaction, if anything. It is okay to limit your interactions with your metamour. It is okay to have boundaries around how much you will talk to this person or not talk to this person. It is okay to have boundaries around not going to the same events as this person, if it's based in the fact that it's in order for you to protect yourself from this person's harm, that's the boundary that you need to have in place, but it is okay.
Again, we will reiterate that you are under no obligation to have any particular type of relationship with your metamour or particular interaction or particular communication, and especially in this scenario where if there's some aggression or hostility or you feel you're receiving harm from your metamour, then yes, it is totally okay to have personal boundaries.
Again, we will forward you to our episode on the basics of boundaries to remember that boundaries are going to be placed on yourself, it's not going to be about you policing how much your partner does or doesn't get to hang out with this particular person, but just how your own behavior is concerned.
Jase: Yes definitely. Our last point as before is, remember at the end of the day, it's their issue and not yours, that if your metamour has this problem with you for whatever reason, that's their issue to deal with. Keeping in mind from scenario A what we've talked about, that they're probably going through all of those things and having to explore those things or maybe not exploring them, but ideally they will. Those are all factors going on and that's so much more of it's about them and not about you, and this one can be hard. I think there's two parts to this.
One is just how you feel about yourself. It can be easy, I know I've experienced falling into this like, "Well, what's wrong with me that this person dislikes me so much?" Especially if this has happened to you more than once. It's like, "Well, what's wrong with me?" While I think maybe there's sometimes value in that question, it is important to remember and I appreciate the two of you for reminding me of this, of being like, "It is their issue not yours." Then on the other hand is, remembering that can help you avoid falling into the trap of just doing the same thing back to them. This one is big, of not feeling like, "Oh, well--"
Emily: It's like a cyclical thing.
Jase: It's like Emily mentioned with the gossip, don't gossip back about them. The same time if they're trash-talking you to your shared partner, don't do the same to them. You could express that that is hurtful to you or even better, maybe express like, "Hey, I'd appreciate if you didn't try to be the go-between and send those messages to me. That's something that you and that person need to work out, that's not my thing. If they want to talk to me directly they can." Just do not fall into the trap of making it a you against them, because that's not going to work out better for you in any way.
There's no scenario where that's a better outcome for you, so just don't. That can be really hard, but that's one of probably the most valuable lessons I've learned. It's like, "Don't fall into the trap of letting it be you against them. Let it be them against themselves, essentially." Now we're moving on to scenario C, which is where you are the person in the middle, where both of your partners are having trouble getting along or one doesn't like the other and you are stuck in the middle of this.
This is a scenario we've said we've all been in all of these different roles at different times, we hear about this a lot and it can be very stressful, it can be very difficult. Hopefully, each of your partners will be able to listen to this episode, maybe recommend this episode to them because them doing their parts in A and D are going to help you out a lot and it's going to help themselves out a lot.
With that, we just wanted to quickly go through this. A lot of it's going to be similar just the opposite side of things we've already covered, but things to keep in mind for yourself as well as some things you can do. Some of these come from us and some are from Franklin Veaux and Eve Rickert, where they've also written about some of these things. Let's do it.
Emily: Initially, listen and support both of your partners for sure, be there for them in as best a way as you can. That again doesn't mean that you need to badmouth the other partner to each of them, but simply just be a listening ear and employ understanding to both of them because understandably it might be difficult in both scenarios.
Dedeker: A part of that listening, still needs to have boundaries in it. It doesn't mean that you're okay to just sit there and listen to one of your partner's just trash-talk the other partner, or insult them or call them names or whatever. It is okay to enforce clear boundaries around the fact that you won't listen to that particular type of talk or that you will speak up and be like, "Hey, actually I don't think that you should be telling me this or saying this to me or I'm not going to continue this conversation if it's going to be just insulting this particular person."
It is okay to have boundaries like that because again, it puts you in a really crappy scenario of wanting to be supportive, but at the same time you probably don't want to back up your partner unlike, "Yeah, he totally is a snot weasel," or whatever insult they've just leveled as-- I didn't want to be too profane, give me a break. [crosstalk] That is up to you to have those boundaries in place if your partner basically isn't being conservative in the way that they're talking about their metamour.
Jase: They're not being respectful to them and to you in the way that they're communicating their feelings, but you can say, again, the boundary is, "I'm not going to be part of this conversation." The boundary is not, "I'm putting a boundary on you, don't say this." That's an important distinction we always need to make. The next one here is to not be the go-between, don't try to fix things for them. That's not just like, don't be the go-between in terms of relaying messages, which we've already said is not good, don't try to translate for each other or figure each of them out for them. Also, this isn't your job to fix.
You can offer some support in that, but ultimately this is their issue to fix, either about themselves or with each other and maybe doing some things to facilitate that could help. Still at the end of the day, this isn't your job to fix. This isn't your responsibility to fix, it's not your job to parent these people and make them get along like they're your children who are fighting with each other.
Emily: Totally. Also along with that, Eve Rickert talked about how you should not be blaming, shaming or pressuring each of your partners to figure this thing out just for your sake. That is really important and an interesting thing to bring up because I think that one could easily be like, "Fuck both of you. This is awful for me. Can you please just figure it out because it's really challenging for me to be in the middle of this."
Jase: I just want to express my dissenting opinion about this one.
Emily: I know, it's hard.
Jase: I think that obviously shaming and blaming isn't a great way to go about this. However, I do think there can be some value to expressing to your partners, "Hey, you talking badly about this person, you hating this person, you throwing a fit every time I hang out with this person, those things hurt me. They don't hurt this other person, they hurt me." I think there is value to that and to being like, "Dude, you're in a relationship with me, not this other person, you need to fucking get over this because this is hurting me, this sucks." Ultimately having those boundaries for yourself of like, "Well, okay, I don't want to be in a relationship where I'm being made to feel this way." I do feel like...
Emily: I think the answer is specific boundary rather than just being like, "I would need you to figure it out and be friends with this person, because it will benefit me and my relationship with both of you ultimately." There may be a scenario in which you're not going to be able to figure it out and you can compartmentalize both of those relationships to a degree and it's not going to be harmful to any of you.
Dedeker: I will say that I liked the way that Emily phrased it better than saying, "You need to fucking get over this." I understand your sentiment behind it but I don't think that's going to be very well received?
Jase: Well, of course, sure. I think what Emily brought up, though, that I think is important that it's more about, I need you to figure this out in a way that makes you not treat me badly because of it and not cause trouble in our relationship because of it, whereas I would definitely agree, don't shame or say, you have to get along with this person, or you have to like this person or to try to coerce them into some relationship that they don't want. I think that's definitely worth pointing out, but just I think maybe keeping the focus more on like, "I need you to at least get enough of a grip to be able to maintain our relationship." That I do think there is some value in that, because I think sometimes people don't realize it.
They're so focused on how much they don't like this other person or how much they think this other person is the cause of these problems, that they don't realize how much they're hurting you in the process of disliking that person.
Dedeker: Interesting. That's true. I think just another reminder is that if you find yourself caught in this scenario, be compassionate to yourself. It is okay to give yourself some gentleness and some love and some compassion, because I think that it is important that you're able to take ownership of the things that you may have done that maybe contributed to this scenario, because sometimes there is. Sometimes it's like, "Oh, maybe I lied to this person," or, "I really didn't respect this person's feelings and then that just added fuel to the fire, essentially, of what's going on between my two partners."
It is okay to take ownership of the things that you have done but you also don't need to take full responsibility for the entire scenario, because these are two separate people who are functioning separately from you, and that is okay for there to be that sense of separation and that to a certain extent, this is going to be their thing to work out as well.
Emily: Absolutely, also, at the end of the day, realize that these two people are adults and therefore, it is ultimately up to them to decide if they want to mend things or not and they may not want to. They may be okay with sticking in this place of resentment and anger, or it may just be that case for a while, for a number of years even. It is possible for change to occur but it may take time and that's something to be aware of as well, it may be challenging in those moments. If you want to stay with these two people, then some understanding there is perhaps needed in those moments.
Dedeker: Or the mending of it may look like them deciding, we can't have any connection with each other.
Dedeker: We just can't, that's just what we've decided, is we're both going to have boundaries around, we can't be friends, we can't hang out with each other. That is sad and it's not necessarily ideal. However, if that's what fixes the scenario, that is something that's worthy of respect also of two people having boundaries, it means that you have to figure out some things logistically. You still have to advocate for your own needs as the partner in the middle of what is it that you need from each relationship but sometimes that happens and that is their decision.
Jase: Related to all of that, and connected to all this is, it's important to take care of yourself, and to prioritize your own mental health and your well-being. That it's okay to take time away for yourself to recalibrate and connect to what it is you actually want. Why are you in these relationships in the first place? It's easy to get lost in just, "All I'm doing is damage control. All I'm doing is trying to make everyone else happy and I'm not actually enjoying these relationships at all."
That it is worth it to take that time to really figure that out for yourself and to find a way to be like, "How can I actually enjoy these relationships? What boundaries do I need for that? How do I need to be taking care of myself? But just remember that. Take care of yourself, your purpose in this relationship isn't just to run around trying to appease everyone else.
Dedeker: Definitely. We're going to end things out on-- We have to cover this because it comes up in the patron group, it's always a question that's asked, and it's, "Okay, but what if I have a problem with my metamour, because I think my metamour is abusing my partner, in some way, either physically abusive, emotionally abusive, verbally abusive, whatever and maybe it's based on, I just think that that's the case, or the behavior that my partner display seems to be the case, or maybe my partner has straight-up told me that this person is abusive, any number of scenarios."
These fall on a spectrum, I feel like the darker side of it tends to be, "Oh, I think that this person is abusive, so it's okay for me to dislike them. It's maybe not necessarily based on evidence, not necessarily based on what's actually going on, it's just that maybe I've heard some negative stories and I've continued the story in my head that this person is abusive or manipulative. That means it's okay for me to dislike my metamour and not have to do anything to fix the relationship."
That's the darker, more dysfunctional side of it, the less dark side of it, it's not the light side, but the less dark side of it that I've seen is more of, "I know that this person's abusive, or my partner has told me that this person is abusive, but I feel so powerless to do anything, because they're still with this person." In those scenarios, again, we were saying at the beginning, it's really a lot of the same advice as if you suspect that a friend or any loved one is in an abusive relationship. It's not an ideal scenario to be in because it can feel very helpless but it doesn't mean that there's nothing that you can do.
There are things you can speak up, you can express concern for their safety without judgment, doesn't have to be a judgment of them staying in the relationship or being with this person, but it is okay to speak up and express that you are concerned about them and about what's going on in the relationship. Bear in mind that direct intervention, I think when we know that someone's in an abusive relationship, it's really easy to feel like, "Okay, we got to sweep in and save them. We're going to come in in the night, bundle them up and whisk them away into their new life and everything's going to be okay, we got to rescue them."
The thing is that, unfortunately, direct intervention like that can often make the situation more dangerous, but not only for you trying to do the rescuing, but also for your partner who's potentially being abused. It can really make things really a lot worse and potentially dangerous. It's better to go at it in a more gentle way. It is okay to ask them if they're open to certain things such as, "Are you open to reaching out to an abuse hotline?" Or, "How would you feel about making reports the police?" Or, "Do you think that finding some professional help here would be helpful? Can I help you in doing that?"
Again, asking is okay but pushing someone into something, as in pushing your partner into like, "You've got to leave this person," or, "You need to get help," or, "You need to call this person." Unfortunately, from the perspective of the person in the middle here, it's likely to feel more like just more abuse and control rather than you're trying to help me. It's going to be more likely to feel like this is another scenario where someone else is trying to dictate what I do or tell me what to do and it's probably not going to feel good.
Again, if it is a scenario where it seems like there's some abuse happening, unfortunately, you can't directly intervene, but you can express your concern, you can speak up, you can advocate for your partner and try to create a container and a context for them that feels as safe as possible for them to make the decisions to leave or to get help and so on and so forth.
Jase: Just to bring us back around the key takeaways from all of this is that it's often their issue and not yours, and that there's things that you can do to keep your own side of the street clean, as an expression that Dedeker likes to use. I'm going to take care of my side of the streets.
Emily: You do those things for sure.
Jase: There's a lot of good stuff there. I hope you found this helpful that you can go back through and look at these things and see which ones might I be able to do a better job of, or what things could I stop doing that I'm doing or start doing that I'm not but then keep in mind at the end of the day, that you can't control other people, that you can't just magically change the way other people think.
Emily: We want to thank you all for going on this journey with us today and talking about all of these ways in which metamours may or may not like you, or you may be stuck in the middle of all of that. We want to hear from you what has happened in these scenarios? How have you dealt with these scenarios? Have you had any issues with it? Have you just broken up with people over it? Have you had great relationships later on with metamours that initially you had shitty relationships with? We want to hear it all. The best place to share your thoughts with other listeners is on this episode's discussion thread on our private Facebook or discourse forums.
You can get access to these groups and join our exclusive community by going to patreon.com/multiamory. In addition, you can share with us publicly on Twitter, Facebook or Instagram. You can email us at email@example.com. Leave us a voicemail at 678 M-U-L-T-I 05 or you can leave us a voice message on Facebook. Multiamory is created and produced by Jase Lindgren, Dedeker Winston and me Emily Matlack. Our episodes are edited by Mauricio del Venera. Our social media wizard is Wilt McMillan. Our theme song is Forms I know I Did by Josh and Anand from the Fractal Cave EP. Our full transcript is available on this episode's page on multiamory.com.