226 - Sex Talk With My Mom

We're joined by the mother-son duo who host Sex Talk With My Mom and talk about their experiences talking openly and personally about their sex lives in a culture that is terrified of it.

Multiamory was created by Dedeker Winston, Jase Lindgren, and Emily Matlack.

Our theme music is Forms I Know I Did by Josh and Anand.

Please send us your feedback and questions to info@multiamory.com, find us on Instagram @Multiamory_Podcast, tweet at us @Multiamory, check out our Facebook Page, visit our website Multiamory.com, or you can leave us a voicemail at 678-MULTI-05. We love to hear from our listeners and we read every message.


This document may contain small transcription errors. If you find one please let us know at info@multiamory.com and we will fix it ASAP.

Jase: On this episode of the Multiamory podcast, we are having a sex talk with, Sex Talk with my Mom. Well, that's a good title. Sex talk with your mom, that's a good title.

Emily: Sex talk with Cam's mom.

Jase: Sex talk with Cam's mom,

Emily: Yes exactly. With Cam and his mom.

Jase: Yes.

Emily: There you go.

Jase: On this episode we have Cam and KarenLee, the two hosts of the Sex Talk With My Mom Podcast, which is also I guess a Youtube show and they are on Instagram. They are a mother and son duo who do a show where they talk very candidly and very intimately about sex. I ran into the two of them a few months ago at Patracon and we've stayed in touch since then, and talked about doing an episode together. It's exciting that finally all of our schedules well, almost all of our-

Emily: Except for Dedeker of course.

Jase: Almost all of our schedules lined up. Dedeker, unfortunately, is not with us for this episode because she is visiting family and spending some time with one of her partners, but we're very excited for this. These two they've been on Tosh.0 and the Today's Show, and they been featured as a top sex podcast, in places like Esquire, HuffingtonPost, Pop Sugar, LA Mag, and most illustrious of all, of course, is the Multiamory podcast.

Emily: Oh, absolutely.

Jase: Which they are about to be on right now.

Emily: Yes indeed.

Jase: Yes, in this episode we covered all sorts of stuff from how we feel like things are changing, with the way people talk about sex to why it's important to be able to have those conversations as well as how it changes your relationships.

Emily: Yes, it's very fun. They are awesome.

Jase: Yes, it's a great one and let's get into it now.

Emily: Wonderful. All right, so welcome to the show.

Cam: Thank you.

KarenLee: Thank you.

Emily: Awesome, we are so glad to have you on. From what I have read and from what we have listened to of your show, you started it because you wanted to get rid of the stigma surrounding sex and surrounding like talking about sex with your parents. Which is really awesome by the way, but can you talk a little bit more about that and about your show's origins?

Cam: Absolutely, we have the whole story. I want to say one thing, there was a moment when I was in college and my mom and I never talked about weed growing up. It was like don't do drugs. I was like, "Okay, I'll never do drugs." Obviously, in college, I'm experimenting with weed and my friend's like, "Why don't you just tell your--" I just told my mom I got this weed, and I was like what? You told your mom that you got this weed? He was like, "Yes, what's the big deal?" I was like, "What is the big deal?" That changed everything. Eventually, I started talking about drugs with you.

Jase: Now you guys get high all the time together or what?

Cam: Well, now she's a big pothead.

Emily: Well, you live in California, no you lived in Chicago right?

KarenLee: We lived in Chicago, and I was not a big pothead, but I smoked weed since I want to say 1976. I don't know, somewhere in that time period.

Cam: 1976.

KarenLee: I've been smoking weed a long time baby.

Cam: That's the effect. The moment where you're like, "Wait why can't I talk about that?" That's the kind of effect we're hoping to make of this show. It was a long journey to get us to that point also.

KarenLee: Yes, it wasn't weed talk with my mom.

Cam: No, it was not weed talk with my mom.

Jase: Have you considered that spin-off show?

Emily: Don't even get him started, he's going to create a-

Jase: I'm always like, spin-off show, spin-off show.

Cam: She literally has been pushing me on a weekly basis, "Oh, you need to make a whole weed network."

Emily: Oh my God, just a weed network. That's awesome.

KarenLee: The truth is that he has an older sister and a younger brother.

Emily: You're the middle child.

Cam: Middle child syndrome, galore.

KarenLee: Why don't you go ahead?

Cam: We were very open about sex growing up. Obviously, she was a very liberal woman.

Emily: There you go, awesome.

KarenLee: Obviously.

Cam: Then when I was 17, a very tragic event took place, my father was murdered, and that flipped our worlds upside down. It really brought us much closer because we had to rely on each other for emotional support, to get through this and I also didn't have anyone else to talk about sex with in terms of a parental figure. I often went to her even prior to his death I would have gone to you as opposed to him. Anyway, this is all to say, it ended up opening up this conversation between us, and at the same time, you just started dating again.

KarenLee: Yes, six months, eight months, after my husband passed away I was like, "You know what? I'm still alive, I'm going to go on date again." I started going out into the singles world, and some funny stuff happened, some scary stuff happened, and I'm like, "I need to get some more information." I started looking online, and Youtube there was nothing, like for a 47-year-old woman who is going out in the world again. I'm like, "Oh, great, I'm going to provide that service." I started my Youtube channel. It was called Love-Encore at the time. Now it's called KarenLee Love. That was in 2012. I thought I would get all these women and we're going to be big community, we're going to go out and teach everybody what to do. I got a 100 views a month because people my age don't even know how to on Youtube.

KarenLee: I'll tell you who did know. Horny dudes that are 18-35 years old. Wanting to know what it's like to be a cougar.

Emily: This is how to fuck her.

KarenLee: How to meet other older women, or learn sex tips. I started interviewing porn stars, and the next thing I know I did some videos with them about oral sex tips. I ended up writing a book called the A Cougar's Guide To Getting Your Ass Back Out There. That was mainly for women, again, trying to help the women. Then Cam, you take over from here.

Cam: Well, this was while I was at college. I would come home and slowly things were changing. I went to my bedroom and there was a new chase lounge in the bedroom.

Emily: You're like what is this?

Cam: I'm like, that's a nice lounge that I'd like to lounge at. Then I noticed there's a camera four feet from it, pointing directly at it. I'm like did you set up a porn studio in my bedroom?

Emily: What's happening here? Oh, my gosh.

Cam: Yes, and then she was coming out with these videos that were titled porn star's tips on penis size, and I was like, "What?"

KarenLee: Very popular by the way.

Cam: My friends were sending this to me I'm like, '"Please don't. Please keep it to yourself."

KarenLee: You were doing your own research too.

Cam: One time I was looking for oral sex tips and I was suggested one of her videos.

Emily: Damn it. I guess I should watch it.

Jase: Hold on just pause for a moment. I just want to get a real picture of this. You're looking for sex tips for yourself, and your mom's video comes up?

KarenLee: It's the suggested videos.

Jase: Was it helpful?

Cam: I did not watch it. I was like, "Oh, this not who I want to be learning oral sex tips from, I don't know where this is going to go, let's just leave it at that." Eventually, she came out with this book called A Cougar's Guide To Getting Your Ass Back Out There, which I thought was hilarious. I decided to start using it in my stand up comedy. Selling the book, I was acting passages from the book.

KarenLee: I'm going to give you a copy.

Emily: Oh, really I'm so excited, that's awesome.

Cam: Then eventually we were like while we're using the same source material we should work together and we created this podcast from that.

Jase: Nice. How long ago did you start the podcast again?

Cam: Four years ago.

Emily: Four years, doing it as long as we have.

Jase: Yes almost.

KarenLee: It's just revving up.

Cam: Have you brought any parent onto your show?

Emily: No, but we've thought about it.

Jase: I just randomly had a shower thought the other day, of doing a guest episode where each of our moms did an episode in our stead. So not even with them, but “you do one as us.”

Cam: Oh, my God.

Emily: I don't know what would happen.

Jase: We were all instantly thought it was hilarious and also terrifying at the same time.

KarenLee: Why would it be terrifying?

Jase: My mom's like really intense and Dedeker's mom is like really whoa-whoa and your mom is very sweet. It would be interesting. I don't know. I just don't know, maybe it'd be awesome.

Emily: Maybe. We can set them free and see what happens.

Jase: Just like silence?

Emily: Yes, I know that might happen, been so. Oh my goodness.

Cam: Who would be the most uncomfortable to talk about sex with other than parents?

Emily: Great question. Of our parents?

Jase: Of our parents?

Cam: Yes.

Jase: I don't know. That's the thing I've actually had a similar trajectory with my mom too at it sounds like you two have had where that was growing up. It was just not something you talk about to now we can be more a matter of fact about it. Sometimes she'll come to me for advice, not about how to do it, but more about, because God. More about just like, I need someone to talk to you about this thing about like when she was dating or stuff like that. She actually just got married few weeks ago. She's off the market sorry everybody.

Emily: Well, obviously like now the two of you are really into talking about sex with one another are you actually into it but you do do it?

Cam: I don't know if we're into it.

KarenLee: Into it is not the word.

Cam: Into it sounds like we're getting turned on to this.

Emily: Sorry, I mean like you just are used to doing it.

KarenLee: We're comfortable.

Cam: Yes, we're comfortable.

KarenLee: It doesn't shock us. Sometimes, in the beginning, I was like, "Oh my God."

Cam: The goal was to make it a comedy show. It was not necessarily to open the conversation about sex.

KarenLee: It's still a common interest.

Emily: Interesting.

Cam: I just thought it'd be funny to talk about sex with my mom.

KarenLee: It is funny to talk about sex with mom.

Emily: Of course I can imagine.

KarenLee: You never know. Especially if he describes his dates.

Jase: We listened to some of this.

Emily: Yes, exactly.

KarenLee: Bring the date and then it's like a deconstructed.

Emily: Yes, like break it down.

KarenLee: Like a date in-front of, it's hilarious.

Emily: That's really, really interesting.

KarenLee: We always have fun.

Jase: How has that changed that over the four years? Have you found that it's become something more than just that it's funny to talk about sex with my mom.

KarenLee: Yes.

Jase: What has that change been? I think that's really interesting.

Cam: I think inherently you guys must experience just by talking about sex, you become sex educators. Sex relationships, all of that, because no one's talking about it. By talking about in a public forum, people start listening. They're like, "Oh, maybe I should try that. Maybe that's the way that this relationship should go." I'm like, "I don't fucking know. I barely have sex." This was supposed to make me feel worth, you shouldn't be taking my word for this.

KarenLee: I used to give him so much shit about not having enough casual sex.

Cam: Over the four years we've interviewed experts, we've become more of--

KarenLee: It's definitely learning more about vibrators than I know.

Emily: Oh, there you go.

KarenLee: I know a lot.

Emily: Yes, I can imagine. I can imagine, well, she knows a lot. All right. By merit of just what you are talking about on a weekly basis.

Cam: We did learn much more about sex and I think we also became much more comfortable talking about it. The first few hours, those were really fucking uncomfortable.

Emily: Really?

Cam: Despite having this whole communication--

Emily: I'm sure they were hilarious though. That uncomfortability was probably hilarious in and of itself. Now it must be slightly different just because that comfort is there.

Cam: Now we have to push in different ways.

KarenLee: It was you who said that the more uncomfortable the conversation gets, then you end up becoming comfortable. I think that's the key in, and it's helped in relationship with my friends. It causes me to push a little more when even with new people that I meet. I'm like, "Well, why would you talk about small talk? Why don't we just go right to the meat of the matter?

Emily: That's really interesting.

KarenLee: I got my friends are all turning into grandmas. I hopefully I'll be a grandma one day too but they're talking about like, "Let me tell you about my granddaughter's belly" I'm like, "This is boring."

That's not what I want to be discussing.

Emily: Oh my God.

KarenLee: I don't want to see any more pictures and videos of your grandkids. I'm sorry. It's boring. Who knows what I'll become but I guarantee I'll still have more talk about.

Cam: Was it uncomfortable for you guys to start opening up the conversation about sex and relationships or was it just like pretty easy from the start?

Emily: I think it was fairly easy but our preconceived notions of what type of relationship we were in, and what that looked like and then how we were presenting it to the world in a lot of ways. Especially in polyamory for instance, in the early days often, well, we or this enlightened thing because we know how to do this relationship structure and therefore we're cooler than everyone else.

To a degree that is totally changed. We realize even more and more now how much we don't know what the hell relationships are about and that we're on the journey just everyone else. Abso-freaking-lutely.

Jase: If I can get all deep on us for a moment. A friend of mine in college, his dad is a pastor and I remember talking to his dad one day because his dad had been divorced and wasn't together with my friend's mom anymore and just being like, "How do you do that?" I asked him, I was like, "How is that being a pastor and feeling like everyone's looking to you to do everything, right?"

KarenLee: We're not perfect.

Jase: His answer to me, he was like, "The job of a pastor or someone like that isn't to do everything right. It's to do the same thing as everyone else, but to it in front of everybody."

Cam: Oh, wow. That's great.

Jase: It's like, it's just about--

Cam: To be on display.

Jase: Yes.

KarenLee: To know that he's human.

Jase: To be willing to do that in front of people so they can hopefully learn from you.

KarenLee: Maybe he does it on purpose. Let me try all these different relationships. For the sake of the synagogue, or the church.

Emily: Oh my goodness. Well, it kind of with that, I'm assuming throughout the course of those you two have been in relationships with people, do you think that that bleeds into just it you talking about sex on a weekly basis? Do you think that that bleeds into your relationships? Into your knowledge of sex of relationships of any nature?

Cam: It definitely bleeds.

KarenLee: As far as I'm concerned, I have an 11-year relationship with a man and we live together. Inevitably whatever I'm discussing ends up being talked about with the two of us. It definitely helped me become more open-minded about facts with him and things that I'd like to try because we've talked to somebody from people. I think it's definitely where I used to be like, "I would never do this, this, or this." Now I'm like, "I don't know. Maybe we would."

Jase: But you have become more open to new things or?

KarenLee: Mentally, like I said, I'm not the grandma, I'm open-minded. I haven't really done the craziest stuff. I'm kind of vanilla, especially with your lifestyle. I think we are definitely trying more stuff and wild into more stuff than we've ever been and probably will be continuing on that route.

Emily: That's great.

Cam: I didn't know that you were experimenting with it.

KarenLee: Well, I didn't mean exactly what I said. You can extrapolate that any way that you want.

Cam: I extrapolate it.

KarenLee: You went some sort of perverse road I don't know what you are thinking. What do you think I'm doing?

Cam: I don't know. We'll talk about that actually.

KarenLee: You do know a little bit of this stuff. One of my really good friends is a porn star and she is in a relationship with a woman and she's always trying to get me to experiment and stuff. In one of our episodes I went to the Korean spa with them. It was quite an experience. I didn't go down into having any kind of sex, but it was just definitely more intimate than I've ever experienced with women before.

Emily: Interesting. I love the Korean spa

Cam: I love the Korean spa.

KarenLee: You've got to go with my friends and you'll see what I'm talking about.

Emily: Interesting. Oh my goodness. Well, how about for you?

Cam: For me. The question is?

Emily: We'll just say how in your relationships if you've had relationships or even just dating or anything has, do you think what talked about on the show is bled into that? For lack of a better term.

Cam: Yes.

KarenLee: Because of the show for the bet.

Cam: Oh my God. My whole life has changed because of this.

Emily: I can imagine.

Cam: I'm pushed to have new experiences because I'm like, "Well I need some content to talk about."

KarenLee: You're like, do it for the bet.

Emily: There you go.

Cam: I also think for my own personal curiosity, by having these conversations, I'm open to all these different worlds I would never have considered before. It definitely helps in that way. With regard to my relationships and dating, it does make it more challenging at times because I'm like, "Okay, I have to have the conversation with them before I bring it out to the podcast."

Make sure that they're cool with me sharing this, and sometimes you don't think that--For me, there were many times where I was like, "This is just an experience that just reflects my internal state. It doesn't really affect them," and like someone who I just casually saw could have been like, "No, you revealed way too much about my life or doing so."

Emily: Oh sure. Yes.

Cam: Even though I kept them anonymous-

Emily: Yes.

Jase: Right.

Cam: Then I would have to take down the episode. It was like a whole learning experience simply.

Emily: Oh wow. Oh my goodness. Yes.

KarenLee: Is that about you guys?

Emily: No. I think consent is a big thing for the show like at making sure that everything is okay.

Jase: Our show is also a little bit less about our own personal experiences, and more about-

Emily: Heavy ideas, yes.

Jase: -the concepts or the things that we're learning about or research. It's more like topic based rather than-- and so I get that. That would be a lot more complicated.

Cam: It's really complicated.

Emily: Yes. Absolutely.

Cam: Yes. Sometimes we- she was mentioning we bring the person out to the show-

Emily: Yes, I wanted to ask about that. That must be really interesting.

Cam: It's wild. Maybe what you were eluding to earlier, how you guys all had different perspectives and what poly means or what that would mean for your relationship. Sex is such an act that no one talks about and holds so differently in their minds. I was being into someone and they were having such a vastly different experience than-

KarenLee: You cannot believe the differences.

Emily: Interesting, meaning because you talked about it after the fact, and you were able to be like, "Wait, what. That's always been happening to you during this?".

Cam: Yes. Wow.

KarenLee: She was like, "Wait, what?".

Jase: Oh my goodness.

Cam: Typically you just don't have those conversations especially if it's casual. You're like, "Okay. That was a fun experience for me. You seem to have a fun experience, we're not going to go into details about how was that stroke or like whatever".

Emily: Yes.

Cam: "What did that stroke mean to you" and this was like a full blown doors are open.

Emily: Wow. Have you done that multiple times on the podcast?

KarenLee: Even light-hearted ones. One of the ones we did initially, we had our 200th anniversary so we asked our guests to send in little videos about their experience on the show and one of them said that honest that she had discussing after the day where she goes to camp, or friend-zoned camp, it changed her viewpoint about things and made her much more honest in her relationship that she has currently.

After that, one little-

Emily: Interesting.

Jase: Wow.

KarenLee: -episodes.

Emily: That's great.

Jase: That's cool.

Cam: It was pretty interesting because we hadn't established whether we were dating or not. Then she came on the show and she's like, "No, this is a friend thing".

Emily: It was a one time thing, yes.

Cam: I was like, "What the hell, I thought that this was a date".

Emily: That happened on the show?

Cam: On the show.

Jase: Wow.

KarenLee: Happened in front of me.

Cam: You're like sitting there to make matters worse.

Emily: Oh my gosh.

Cam: It would have been bad enough on my own.

Emily: Wow. Oh that's fascinating. Oh my goodness.

Jase: Yes. That's an interesting thing because that's something that we don't do on our show. We don't do that like let's sit and talk about our specific relationship or this one specific thing that happened to me.

KarenLee: We'll get there.

Jase: It's interesting, yes.

KarenLee: We're going to get there, you can come on our show.

Cam: Was it a conscious decision to exclude some personal details like that or--

Emily: It's a good question. I think to a degree, I mean it comes up from time to time, absolutely but we do talk about just concepts of like, "Okay, today we're going to- I don't know, talk about cheating. Is it possible to cheat in a polyamorous relationship". Yes, we do say, "Okay, I remember a time when XYZ occurred," but we keep it more in the past. We don't necessarily talk about the relationships that are happening right at that specific moment.

Cam: This is how you approach mum?

KarenLee: That's how I approach it-

Emily: Yes.

KarenLee: I keep it in the-- I talk a lot about my experiences when I was dating-

Emily: Sure.

KarenLee: -right after the death. That stuff was obviously many years ago. I don't know if I could have actually talked about that right away at the time. It's scary, what'd I put myself in.

Jase: Yes.

Emily: I'm interested to hear some of those stories but, yes.

Emily: I have some good stories.

Emily: Yes.

Jase: I think we've had a little bit of a similar thing of talking about things from the past rather than something that we're in the middle of right now after. Not from a sense even of can't talk about it or don't want to but more like, "I don't know what I've learnt from that yet while I'm in the middle of it".

Emily: That's a really good point.

Jase: I think there's a different value to it to show, "This is how I am right now in the middle" versus being a little look back-

Emily: Well it's sort of respective.

Jase: Yes.

Emily: Yes, when you're in the middle of it.

Jase: But we have actually I think in more recent years tried to open up a little bit more about what we go through currently and have gone through just in general because we have found that people do appreciate that. With getting that-

KarenLee: It's like their favorite part of the podcast .

Cam: This is the pastor being displayed.

Jase: Yes, totally. We have tried to bring in more of that I guess especially when it comes to things like insecurities or challenges that we still have, because it's real easy to look at a pastor I guess or to look at someone on a podcast and assume they've got their shit figure out all the time.

Cam: Right, because they're talking.

Emily: Right . Yes, because they're talking in front of people.

KarenLee: I hate to say I don't . I've got the least shit figured out. Is that a word, least shit figured out?

Emily: Yes.

Jase: Brilliant. Love it. Loved it.

Cam: There's one danger which is that, at least in my experience talking about it is like if they hear that I've spoken about other podcasts it inherently changes our relationship.

Emily: That makes sense.

Cam: I often talk about that observe particle theory, you guys know this thing.

Jase: Tell us.

Cam: Okay. Basically they found that these electrons or neutrons in certain conditions, if you are observing it it will appear as a wave and if you're not observing it, it will appear like a static object or vice versa or something like that. Basically, suggesting that you're act of observing it changes the actual particle. Everyone follow?

Emily: Yes.

Cam: I don't know if I explained it best.

KarenLee: Why do you look at me like did you get that? I know that-

Cam: I know but, I didn't explain it as eloquently as I could have. Anyway-

KarenLee: I think you nailed it.

Cam: The point being by even observing the relationship or the date, you inherently change the fact that- something is different about it.

Emily: Yes. Sure.

Jase: Right.

KarenLee: Maybe she'll be more self conscious dealing with you-

Cam: Maybe that, maybe-

Jase: For sure, yes.

Cam: He's going to describe my orgasm on the show in front of his mother. That would be bad. You get it?

Jase: Yes.

Cam: Exactly. I have to pick and choose when to share.

KarenLee: My partner, he has to be open about what I'm talking about. He has to be cool with that, because if he's not supportive then it's not going to work.

Emily: Does that ever come up?

KarenLee: It occasionally comes up, but very rarely. He's very open, he's an open person.

Emily: That's great. It works then.

KarenLee: Yes, and he's pretty supportive of what I'm doing. I'm not fishing here.

Cam: I think one of my least favorite feelings ironically is hooking up with someone and thinking that they could potentially be talking shit about me to their friends afterwards. Or you're just having any interactions thinking, "Oh my god, after this interaction they're going to be talking behind my back" and they do it. I try to avoid that on our show.

Jase: Right.

Emily: Yes, it's more of a teachable moment as opposed to being like, "Wow, that person sucked in bed".

Cam: Right. Right.

Emily: Of course. Yes.

Cam: Hopefully self deprecating.

Emily: Sure.

Jase: Yes. I think there's also something where it's like, "If you want to know what I'm saying about you behind your back it's on the podcast. It's all there." There's no mystery.

Cam: Yes. There's no mystery, you get it. Yes.

Emily: No, that's true.

Jase: Yes. Well, continuing on with like you said talking on this show has made you more comfortable talking with each other about sex and also probably just talking about it generally. I guess I'm wondering, have you found that talking about these sorts of things on the show and how observing them changes them? I guess for you Cam, this one's mostly for you- You can give me the insights.

KarenLee: He comes really fast, that’s the question.

Cam: Mum, what the fuck?

KarenLee: Just kidding.

Jase: The question is, have you found that it's made it easier or harder to get into more of a relationship instead of just casually dating or something? Has it changed it, do you think?

Cam: It's kind of a double edged sword. I think I put more onus on me to really not fuck up a little bit. I can't really just go wild and crazy because I'm like, "Whoa, am I going to be comfortable talking about that on the show?". Then, on the other-

KarenLee: What do you mean wild and crazy? Like sex, sex?

Cam: I mean, I'm an open book with this whole thing. It would be very hard for me to go and do something that I typically wouldn't do. In a way it's harder to get out of my comfort zone.

Emily: Because you know you're going to talk about it.

Cam: Right.

Jase: That's interesting.

Cam: But on the other hand, it has definitely provide communication skills, which then makes it easier for me to relate to someone.

Emily: That's good.

Cam: Yes.

Emily: Interesting.

Jase: I'm going to do a different question that's related, and maybe this is to the both of you. This is for the both of you actually. I think most people are afraid of talking about sex, right? They just don't do it. Even with their partners, people tend to-- Anyone doing the hints and you can't just fricking say what you mean. I think that-- What I've noticed of the sex-positive community tends to be also made up of people who are less likely to be as focused on things like monogamy or finding the one or the mythology that goes along with relationships and sex because you had to take away a little bit of the mystery or the-- I want to say magic, and I mean that in a bad way.

Cam: Like the idealism-

Jase: When you give something more power than it actually has.

Emily: Meaning that people should just believe like, "Well, if I'm going to have sex with you, it'll automatically be magical and perfect and wonderful without needing to talk about it in a specific way?"

Jase: Yes, or even just the fact that we had sex at all means some sort of cosmically meaningful thing rather than, "Maybe we have meaning together, maybe we don't. We also had sex. Maybe it was great, maybe it wasn't."

Emily: It could be separate things.

Jase: But one doesn't necessarily mean the other. I guess where I'm trying to go with all this is I wonder if that's changed your feelings or your thoughts about that stuff. About finding the one or about soulmates or needing strict monogamy or things like that. Most people, I feel like, you could enter a relationship or you get married and you put your head in the sand and you pretend your partner never had sex with anyone else. Anyone who dates you knows, right?

Cam: They did know that and so did 112. Another person who had sex with me

Jase: You can't pretend that you haven't had partners before them.

KarenLee: I never understood that because I get totally turned on when partner told me about all the people he had sex with. I'm like, "Tell me more. I want every single detail. Tell me more, it turns me on. I want to know."

Emily: Fascinating.

KarenLee: I'm like, "he's desirable for someone else." That's a turn-on to me. I guess I never felt that way about

Jase: Maybe you're there already.

KarenLee: I'm kind of like a traditional monogamy person, believe it or not, so far.

Cam: I guess I haven't really lost my idealism. I think I am still striving to have-- The sex that I have tends to be, or I want it to be, more meaningful, more connected. I'm aware that I'm capable of having just physical sex and it means very little afterwards except it kind of leaves me feeling, "It could've been better." I still strive for that romantic ideal, I think.

Jase: Can you tell me more about that? What is that romantic ideal? I don't mean to imply that I'm saying that disconnected sex is the best sex or something. I don't mean that at all. I agree with you that there's a different quality between being very much connected with someone versus not. In terms of the romantic ideal for you, what all does that involve?

Cam: The relationship doesn't-- it's less important to me. Just the feeling of being seen and seeing the other person than physically through that. That's the ideal.

Jase: Does that, in your mind-- I'm just like psycho-analyzing you here-

Does that, come along with it the idea of, "Eventually I'll find this one who will satisfy me enough that I'll want to be with them all the time." Or that kind of mythology, or that sort of idea. Is that something you do find you're still looking for or has that changed?

Emily: It would change the trajectory of the show a little bit, possibly.

Cam: This is actually something I've been thinking a lot about. I'm like, "What the fuck happens if I get into a various committed relationship."

KarenLee: You can't do it Cam, sadly.

Emily: I'm sorry only one of us can and it's not going to be-

Cam: I had a six-months relationship a couple of years ago

KarenLee: That shit was so boring then I want-

Cam: How am I going to-- She's like the first episode was juicy because I'm like, "Holy shit, what's going on?"

KarenLee: I can't talk about this. I'm like, "Oh, shit. I can't talk about this and you can't talk about that." What the fuck are we going to talk about?

Cam: I think it would be nice to have at least one partner who I can feel very connected with.

KarenLee: You'd do two partners?

Cam: I'll start with one. Clearly, you guys are comfortable with more than one, but one would be great. Then, if we can start adding more and everyone is excited, then, maybe that works, I don't know. There's no ideal in the essence of how many partners.

KarenLee: He's very picky.

Cam: Yes, looking for one would be great.

KarenLee: I actually admire you guys because when I was single, I was like, "Oh my God, I just want to find I'd want to even go out more than once."

Jase: That's challenging sometimes.

KarenLee: How do you have more than two and three people in your life, that's really, really challenging to find someone-- I mean I have a hard time getting to do with the one partner I have.

Jase: We have found that, in some ways, it takes the pressure off of that one relationship.

KarenLee: Yes, I can see that would be helpful he's bothering me today, I'll go with the other person

Jase: Maybe not quite like that, but it's like I have certain things this partner likes to do with me and this other one maybe likes to do different things. Instead of-

Cam: We've heard this a ton.

KarenLee: Yes.

Emily: Have you had other people on your show that are not monogamous?

KarenLee: Totally.

Cam: It seems, these days, no one is monogamous.

Emily: Really? Where are the monogamous people?

KarenLee: Where are the unicorns at this point? That still believe in monogamy, believe it or not. I don't even know if I am, so maybe you're the only unicorn-

Cam: No, I'm definitely not just preaching like everyone needs to be monogamous. I don't know if that's the right move at all.

KarenLee: The bachelorettes, they were monogamous.

Emily: But they weren't when they were on the show.

KarenLee: You have to listen to the podcast to hear that one.

Emily: Oh, there you go. I know, I'm interested in that. That's very exhibitionist, like cures my entire dating-life on screen and for six weeks or whatever. That's fascinating.

Jase: Being in terms of an observed relationship changing and manufactured and production thrown at it, what a weird thing. I can't even imagine.

Cam: What a weird thing. How does anything substantial come from there?

Emily: I have no idea.

KarenLee: And they're married and they're pregnant-

Emily: That's really amazing to me. Because, yes, it does work like 20% of the time, I've heard.

KarenLee: That's high. These guys are in love.

Emily: Yes. Good for them.

Cam: Maybe those producers are the best dating app out there.

KarenLee: You were saying that Cam should go on the Bachelor.

Emily: There you go. A stand-up comedian with a hit podcast, everyone is going to love it.

Cam: I might be able to go out there but I think it would go crazy.

KarenLee: That's multiamory, right there.

Cam: I think I would just be one of those contestants being like, "There are all these other guys that I'm competing against."

KarenLee: No, that's the bachelorette. If you were the bachelor, you have a bunch of bachelorettes out there and they’ll want you and you have to pick which one to give a rose to. You'll feel so bad for them. I can't pick one, they'll all feel bad if I do that.

Cam: This is true, I think it would be very disconcerting if you like, "You suck it."

KarenLee: He'd be calling me up "Oh my God, I'm tearing my hair out. What do I do?"

Cam: I would be bald by the end of it, for sure.

Emily: That would be definitely challenging for sure. Do you see the world at large moving in this direction of being able to talk about sex with people in general, like their partners, their parents, whomever. Obviously, America is still a very puritanical society.

KarenLee: Yes, it's so bizarre.

Emily: That permeates every inch of our culture still. I love what you two are doing because you're breaking that mold in a really huge way.

Cam: Thank you.

KarenLee: Do you have kids?

Emily: No.

KarenLee: If you have kids, would you feel comfortable talking to them about sex?

Emily: Yes.

Jase: I'm not ever going to have any, but my hope is that for my friends or my siblings who have kids that even if they're not comfortable talking about it that I can help be that role of-- If you need someone to go to who's not your parent to talk about this stuff, I'm the cool uncle. That's the hope, we'll see if it turns out that way.

KarenLee: That sounds, that’s out.

Jase: Either that or I'm the weird uncle that you don't talk to. "Don't talk to uncle Jase."

Cam: You'd made comments recently that you're like, "This country is going backwards. People are speaking less about sex."

Emily: Right now, it is, in most ways.

KarenLee: It's totally backwards, which is so bizarre. People are so uptight and prissy and oh my God, it's just horrible. At the same time, the most popular video that I made on YouTube was about penis size. We need to talk about it.

Jase: It's like a conflict of-- We don't feel like we can talk about it, but everyone wants to. It's really interesting.

KarenLee: With your parents, how did that sex talk go?

Jase: Which?

KarenLee: Either way.

Emily: It was a little rough at first in terms of like coming out as poly-amorous during that time. That was challenging for a while but talking about sex, the first time that I had sex I was like, "I need to go to the gynecologist," my mom's like, "Well, I guess that means that you're going to have sex?" I was like, "Yes, and she's like, "Well, it just relationships become so much harder then," and I'm like, "I know, but we're going to do this now it's going to be all right."

KarenLee: This method of deterrent is not working.

Emily: Yes.

KarenLee: Next question?

Emily: I'm not going to say absolutely. I'm not going to abstain from sex so here we go, we're going to do this but it was challenging initially a little bit, especially the polyamory talk for sure.

Jase: Yes, those are like two different conversations.

Emily: I know.

Jase: I know that for me, I got to an age where I felt like my parents should have had the talk with me by now and so I actually approached my dad about it and I was like, "Hey dad so I think it's time you should give me the talk."

Emily: Give me the talk. How old am I? Come on.

KarenLee: There is a book that talk about the penis.

Emily: Well you're the oldest child too.

Jase: Yes.

KarenLee: You were six years old when you did this?

Jase: I'm trying to remember how all they would have been. It was probably maybe 13 or teenager or something like that, but I remember-

KarenLee: It was foreshadowing.

Jase: Yes, I guess so but I remember we were sitting out on the front porch in the summer in Iowa and had popsicles because super hot in the middle of the day and he's sitting there, he's like, "Well, a penis is sort of like this popsicle." .

Emily: Wow, seriously?

KarenLee: He's teaching you how to give blow jobs at the same time.

Jase: It is not the direction it went but he just made that joke out of nowhere and I still remember that. It is just hilarious now it cracked me up even at the time. Then we continued, he didn't really have a lot of content to that. I feel like the most sex stuff I learned was from books actually, that my mom had gotten me that her doctor or I guess maybe it was our pediatrician or something had recommended like, "These are some good books," they're like, "What's happening to my body book for boys?" Or something like that. I actually learned a lot from it. I pored over those diagrams of naked people.

KarenLee: You are always sexually oriented?

Jase: More like-

KarenLee: Sexually oriented?

Jase: More like very interested.

KarenLee: Curious? Sexually curious?

Jase: Like nerdy about it. Maybe it is the thing because I was saving myself for marriage and didn't have sex till I was a freshman in college.

Emily: Well I did too.

KarenLee: Me too.

Emily: No one will say 18.

Emily: You were 18?

Jase: I was 19.

Emily: You are an old boy?

Jase: I'm an old boy, yes.

Emily: In terms of school?

KarenLee: Maybe there is a key you lose it when you're 19, you become crazy like.

Emily: Yes, 18-19 exact.

Jase: Yes, but anyway, my sex talk with my parents then was that. Was about popsicles. Honestly, I feel like the actual content of it ended up being more about being aware of what other people think about sex and like, if you're alone with a girl, even if you're not doing something people might think that you are and you need to be aware of that fact and it was sort of a different angle, I think, than a lot of people have had in their sex talk with their parents. Sure, there is mostly scrambled because this was before we had good internet plan .

Emily: Yes, he's kind of old. I know he does but-

Jase: I'm turning, turning 37 next month.

KarenLee: No way.

Emily: Right? Looking at it this is disgusting.

Cam: I am 30.

Emily: Good genes, I'm 31 and I am, "How did you-

KarenLee: All the same age and I'm just the old lady in the bunch .

Cam: No, maybe poly-amorous is the way to go.

Jase: Keeps you young.

Emily: Keeps you young . Oh my Gosh.

Jase: That, and the drinking the blood of babies is, always helpful.

Emily: Don't tell them about that.

Jase: Yes, that's

Emily: Do you have any live shows coming up? I know that one just pass.

Cam: Yes. We just had one on June 10, but-

KarenLee: The Hollywood improve?

Cam: We do once a month, every other month in LA if you are around.

Jase: That's great and you do them all in LA?

Cam: Yes.

KarenLee: You can open San Francisco as a city in Chicago so we have, that's on travel.

Cam: We do travel.

KarenLee: We do travel.

Jase: Right and that's great.

Emily: Can you pimp yourself out in any other way as well?

Cam: Well you can check us out on Instagram at Sex Talk with my Mom in wherever you're listening to this podcast. You can check us out Sex Talk with my Mom.

KarenLee: We have a pagearound/sextalkwithmymom.

Cam: Yes, I think that's pretty much it.

Emily: Perfect and then stitcher, ride tunes, our fine Podcasts are sold.

KarenLee: Any subscribed you guys we'd love to know who is and tell us if you came from the Multiamory podcast.

Jase: Totally. and also I guess you could look up, because we're going to be on your show or probably have already been on your show by the time this comes out. Go check that out as well if you want to hear a totally different take.

Cam: So check it out.

KarenLee: That is also our favorite.

Jase: That's great.

Emily: Well, thank you so much.

Cam: Thank you for having us on.

KarenLee: Awesome. Love it.

Emily: All right. That was so awesome having the two of them on our show. We're really interested to hear what you got out of that episode. Also, if you have listened to any of their stuff before, if you've maybe even seen them in person at one of their live shows, we would love to hear from you what you think about them.