277 - Religion, Shame, and Identity with Gloria Jackson-Nefertiti
Transcending Shame
Gloria Jackson-Nefertiti is an art model, poet, panelist, public speaker, and teacher of a popular workshop called Transcending Shame. She is also a polyamorous, bisexual, sex-positive, autistic, proud breast cancer survivor who grew up with a fundamentalist Christian upbringing. Shame was a big part of Gloria’s life, both surrounding religion and identity, and so she decided to help others start their journeys in dealing with shameful feelings.
During this episode, Gloria provides some insight on:
How shame relates to other emotions like anger, fear, sadness, and the like.
Some different sources we might feel shame from.
Shame specifically relating to our own gender, sex, race, sexual orientation, relationship orientation, etc.
What society needs to do on a macro level to start addressing how to deal with shame.
Take a look at Gloria’s flyer here that details four different ways to transcend shame, and includes some resources to utilize as well.
Visit her website, and find Gloria on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter to get more information about her and any upcoming events she’s attending.
Transcript
This document may contain small transcription errors. If you find one please let us know at info@multiamory.com and we will fix it ASAP.
Jase: On this episode of the multiamory podcast, we're talking with Gloria Jackson-Nefertiti. She is an art model, former fundamentalist Christian, and breast cancer survivor whose 2013 diagnosis reminded her just how short life is. For that reason, she no longer cared what people thought of her, which served as the catalyst to help her come out loud and proud as bisexual, polyamorous, and sex-positive. She's presented at numerous conferences, including Poly Living, Philadelphia, Poly Topia, and the Woodhull Sexual Freedom Summit. We're so happy to have you here, Gloria. Thank you so much for joining us.
Gloria: Thank you. Thank you.
Dedeker: Gloria, you are a very interesting person. You have a lot of different interests and a lot of stories to share. The place that I want to start first is, so first of all on this show, we're no stranger to fundamental Christianity in our backgrounds.
Emily: Well, the two of you are.
Dedeker: Yes. Emily's the odd person out because Emily was raised as a heathen atheist.
Emily: I know it's so strange.
Gloria: I can't imagine what that would be like.
Dedeker: Myself and Jase also have these fundamental Christian backgrounds and also ended up in this weird role reversal of being polyamorous and bisexual and sex-positive and all these things. I would love to start there and hearing a little bit of what that journey has been like for you.
Gloria: Oh boy, let's see, I'm trying to think of where would be a good place to start. Actually, maybe I'll just start with the fundamentalist Christian background. First, I was born and raised in Mississippi. I lived in Mississippi until I was 15 and then we all moved to Portland, Oregon, we had some relatives there. While I was in Mississippi I became really involved with the church and it continued after we moved to Portland.
Let's see, in the mid-1970s, I was a student at Portland State University and I was also a member of Campus Crusade for Christ. Actually, now that I think about it, I was also a member of Campus Crusade when I was in high school and I just continued it in college. Then there was one day that I was on campus and I was walking between buildings and I happened to see this table. There were these people who were starting this new campus ministry. I found out that the head of the ministry or the facilitator or whatever you want to call him, he was a former staff member with campus crusade for Christ, which I found interesting.
Anyway, I became involved with this group because I was really impressed with how interested they were in evangelism. They would always preach about going into all the world and preach the gospel. I was definitely interested in that and so I became involved with this group. A bunch of us live together in this apartment complex in Beaverton, Oregon, which is a suburb of Portland.
Gradually I started noticing things, well, like for one thing, there were people from campus crusade who cautioned me about joining this group because they said that the head of the group was very insensitive. He was the kind of person who didn't take criticism very well and I thought, "Well, that's all well and good, but this just looks great to me." I joined the group, I moved in with them, and it wasn't very long until I realized that no, it wasn't a campus ministry, it was a cult. The way that I found out that it was a cult was because it was like we were the only ones who were following the Bible and were evangelizing the way Jesus said.
It was this big us against them situation, but what was especially difficult was that now, in Portland, Oregon it's a predominantly white area. When I lived in Portland, it was very common for me to be the only black person on the job, just the only black person anywhere. There were other black people who lived in Portland, but it was in really segregated areas. What I noticed is that since I was the only black person-- Now, this is so hard for me to believe and to imagine right now, but I was the first black person that most of these people had even known.
I was constantly put in that situation where it was my job to teach them what black people were like. It was like I was the representative of the entire black race. That was extremely difficult, but one of the things that I noticed too is that this is really common with cults, and that is cult members can usually tell if somebody is lonely or doesn't really fit in and they're looking for a family.
Dedeker: That seems like a primary target for sure.
Gloria: Right, and I think that that was something that they picked up from me, and that also ties into my autism too. I wasn't diagnosed until last year at the age of 63, but all my life, I knew that I was just different from everybody else and I got bullied a lot because of that. I'm sure that when the people in the cult invited me to join their group, I'm sure that they picked up characteristics, they noticed how trusting I was, for example.
Dedeker: Of course. What was the breaking point for you when-- What was the moment where you realized, "Oh, I need to get out of this."?
Gloria: Now, this is going to sound so weird and so simplistic. The breaking point for me was I got my own bedroom for the first time in my life. Now, let me explain. Let me just back up a little bit. I came from a huge family. I'm the second oldest out of eight kids and so I always had to share a bedroom with somebody. In fact, when I was growing up, I not only had to share a bedroom, but there were sometimes that I actually had to share a bed with my sisters. When I was living in the cult, I again had to share a bedroom with somebody.
I remember, let's see, probably in the second year or something like that or toward the end of the second year, people did some shuffling, some room shufflings basically, where they would move to a different room. I also remember that the group started growing and so some people move to a different apartment. When that happened, then I ended up having my own bedroom for the first time in my life. Also, for the first time in my life, I was able to finally think about what I wanted, what was important to me, what I believed.
I realized that so many of these beliefs that I was willing to die for, I realized I didn't believe them for a minute. Once I realized that I just thought there's no way that I can stay in this group because I'm just totally going against my beliefs now. What I also saw was just how misogynistic and hypocritical and racist this group was. They had a completely different set of standards for me.
Jase: Oh, really wow. For you it was having your own room was what gave you that mental space to-- It all came into focus right away?
Gloria: It really did. It really did. I didn't have anybody breathing down my neck, telling me what I was supposed to believe. Now, when I told the staff woman that I needed to leave the group, I remember her, her saying, "Well, how do you know you're making the right decision? How are you going to make it?" All I could do was tell her, "I don't know. I just know that this is what I need to do. I really can't explain it, but I know that this is the right thing for me."
Emily: It seems very brave.
Dedeker: Yes, seriously. After leaving this evangelical Christian cult was it like the pendulum completely swung the other way and then it was like all polyamory?
Emily: All polyamory all the time.
Gloria: Well, actually I didn't start identifying as polyamorous until maybe a few years later, but what I did do was after I left the cult and left the church, then I started drinking and having sex in that order. Because these are things that I was constantly told I was not supposed to do, that they were bad, they were evil. The sex part especially, that made no sense because then once you have that ring on your finger and you get married, then it's okay to have sex, which made no sense to me because here I was told all my life that sex was bad, that sex was evil.
Emily: Right. Seems like super weird arbitrary distinctions.
Gloria: It really was. It really was, but yes, I started drinking and having sex in that order, and the person who I-- I don't like to say I lost my virginity with her because the idea of virginity, that's really just a social construct anyway, but I'll just say that the person I had my first sexual experience with was somebody who I met at a party and there was a lot of alcohol. Yes, I started drinking first and then having sex.
Dedeker: I don't know if this was messaging that you also got Gloria in your upbringing, but I know for myself I did the whole thing. I signed two different purity pledges when I was growing up, but I got that message about sex is shameful and you need to avoid it and need to not have sexual thoughts but then for me, it was also coupled with this messaging of sex when you're married is amazing and it's awesome. It's transcendent and it's going to give you a blessed, happy marriage and it has so much power into it. I know for myself on my own journey towards learning sex-positivity, having sex and it both not being evil and also not being this like mind-blowing necessarily experience, especially not my first time, was such an important step on just being like, "Oh, sex is just normal and human," which feels like more realistic sex-positivity to me than this idea of sex is this incredibly intense, divine magical thing that's going to change your life.
Gloria: Oh my gosh.
Dedeker: I want to move on to talk about shame, but I'm just really curious just because I think that the listeners of our show will be curious as well. What was the journey into polyamory like?
Gloria: Well, after I left the church and just started experimenting with various things that I was told that I wasn't supposed to do, and of course sex was one of them, that was also around the time that I realized that I was bisexual. The kids today, and I can say this, when I was your age I was constantly told as a bisexual person that I needed to make up my mind and that I was straddling the fence. I remember sometimes people when they would introduce me to somebody they would say something like, "Oh, you'll have to, excuse Gloria. She can't make up her mind."
Dedeker: Oh, my gosh.
Gloria: Yes, I know that was pretty crappy. It's like, you were either gay or straight period. Then also around that same time, this was in the mid-1980s, I remember that personal ads started becoming popular and people were placing personal ads or answering ads in these different newspapers. When I lived in Portland, there were the Willamette Week that was the newspaper that it had plenty of personal ads and it was pretty similar to the Seattle Weekly.
Jase: I was thinking it was like The Stranger, but it's more like Seattle Weekly?
Gloria: Right?
Jase: Or more mainstream not-
Gloria: Exactly.
Jase: Okay, I got it.
Gloria: Yes, I remember there was one ad that I answered it was a bisexual woman who had placed this ad. When I answered the ad, now, she and I never became sexual, but we became really good friends and she was involved with, well, at the time it was called open relationships. What really intrigued me was when she would tell me about how when she would go on a date with a guy and she'd receive a lot of loving and nurturing from the guy. Then she would go home to her boyfriend and receive a lot of loving and nurturing from him, and I thought, "Wow, sounds great."
Jase: "Sign me up for that."
Gloria: Yes, really. I started dating different people who were involved with what was open relationships. I don't remember when it became ethical non-monogamy or polyamory but at the time, it was just open relationships. I'd been polyamorous since, well, gosh, probably like 35 years or something like that, but it didn't really become healthy for me until maybe 10 years ago.
Jase: What was it that made that change?
Gloria: I guess what really made the change was just finding better quality partners, that was what really did it for me. Then later on-- Well, let's see. My partner who I've been with the longest, I'd been with him for 14 years. In fact, actually, we celebrated 14 years last month.
Jase: Oh, congrats.
Gloria: Yes, thank you. Then, my other partner, we've known each other for like 10 years and we've been partners for like seven years and they're just amazing. They really are. Then, so something else that happened during that time that made it so that my relationships are just a lot healthier now is, you mentioned the breast cancer diagnosis. Yes, in December 2013, I was diagnosed with breast cancer and that diagnosis in a way was a gift for me because it showed me just how short life is.
As a result realizing that I realized that I no longer cared what people thought of me. That made it easy for me to come out as bisexual, polyamorous, and sex-positive. Also by not caring what people thought of me, I was also able to set boundaries and to no longer allow people to treat me poorly.
Dedeker: My goodness, sorry. There's just so much there. That sounds like such a peak moment of growth in one's life that I think all of us are constantly working on. Not only getting to the point of not caring what people think of you but also that being the thing that allows you to not let people treat you poorly. That's huge.
Gloria: Oh, yes. It really is. It really is because when I think of my relationships in the past, there was somebody who I was in a relationship with-- Well, actually I probably should put quote marks around the word relationship, but there was somebody I was with for nearly two decades.
Emily: Oh my goodness.
Gloria: Yes, and now, as I think of that relationship, I just have to shake my head because I cannot imagine being with somebody who treated me so poorly or someone who I know is lying to me, but at the time I just I wanted to believe him so badly.
Dedeker: Of course.
Gloria: He was somebody who I met at the very poly potluck I went to in Seattle. He said he was polyamorous and I believed him, but I would start seeing different things that just did not add up where I could tell that he wasn't being totally truthful with me. Today, if that were to happen, if I could tell that someone is not being truthful with me, there is no way I'm going to let them get away with it. I'm going to talk to them about it and if they become defensive or lie about lying, then I'll just have to call it off.
Dedeker: Of course. I know all three of us definitely have nightmare stories of our past, our past partners and that same thing, but sometimes it is so amazing when you look back in the past and be like, "Wow, how did I put up with that?" But I guess that's what growth is. I think that's actually a good transition into talking about shame. Now, we've on the podcast before, I think I've said this a billion times. "We want to do a shame episode. We want to do a shame. We want to do a shame episode," because it comes up in a lot of different arenas.
I've been in the middle of doing like healing shame training from the Center for Healing Shame in Berkeley. This has been on my mind a lot. Gloria, you have this workshop that's simply titled transcending shame. You've run this workshop at many different conferences in many different spaces. Can you tell us about your inspiration for that and how that workshop came to be?
Gloria: Well, let's see, I think probably in 2010 or something like that, but I remember the workshop was called Sexual Shame. There were a couple of things that came into my mind as I sat in this sexual shame workshop. One of the things I thought was that the examples that he used, they weren't necessarily unique to sexual shame. I really thought that they would apply to just shame, period.
The other thought that occurred to me was, "Wow, I could totally do a workshop like this," because as I sat there, I thought about the ashamed that I encountered in grade school and high school being autistic, even though I didn't know at the time that I was autistic, but I just knew that I got bullied a lot and constantly laughed at just because I acted differently and talked differently from the people around me. I would keep getting these messages that, that there was something wrong with me. There was certainly a lot of shame from that.
Then I also thought about my years in the cold in Portland being the only black person and I remembered just how shameful I felt. Because once again, I didn't fit in. I really wasn't part of the group, even though technically I was part of the group, but I was always kind of on the outside because I just, well, basically, I felt that I wasn't as good. so there was shame around that and then, of course, the shame around sex. There was also shame around having my first sexual experience so late in life. I was 25 years old and from what I understand, most people have sex in high school or in college. There was an incredible amount of shame there.
Jase: Right. I have a question, I'm curious. When you had this your breast cancer diagnosis, that for you, that realizing how short life is was when you decided to stop caring what people think. I was curious was then this looking into shame and what that's about was like, "Okay, now I need to figure out how to deal with this shame so that I cannot care?" Or was that before and then it took this to get you the rest of the way there? What was the timeline?
Gloria: Well, let's see. I think that just the thinking about shame came before the breast cancer diagnosis. Even though I didn't really do anything about it or start teaching at conferences until after the diagnosis. What happened was, let's see, I was diagnosed in December 2013, and then I had the surgeries in 2014 and, let's see, in 2016, I started hearing about different conferences who were looking for presenters and I just right away, I thought about shame and the title Transcending Shame just came to me. I didn't really have to have to think about it, it just made sense to me.
The very first place that I presented was at Converge Con in Vancouver, BC. This was in April 2017. The workshop has improved so much over the years. I remember that the very first time I did it, some of the examples I used were of people who used to be celebrities maybe like in the 1980s.
There were good examples that I used, but being that I was using examples that the majority of the people you're sitting there in the workshop had never even heard of, that was a little bit embarrassing, but I thought, "Okay, I'm going to file this away." Now I use more contemporary examples like Robert Downey Jr, for example, or Lizzo. Basically, I use her as an example of somebody who is not ashamed at all.
Dedeker: What a perfect example.
Gloria: Yes, as many times as I've taught this workshop I still think I really ought to take some lessons from Lizzo, seriously. If it's possible.
Emily: Don't we all.
Gloria: Yes, really.
Emily: Maybe this is something that you discuss in your workshop, but it seems like shame is a root cause for a lot of other things in your life, or a lot of other emotions, like fear and anger and sadness and things along those lines. Can you talk a little bit about maybe how shame relates to those other emotions and to what maybe it prevails life in general in terms of if you are angry or sad or have constant patterns of fear?
Gloria: Yes, well. I would say that where the shame really comes in is, if I'm in a relationship with somebody who has a habit of shaming me, and the person who I'm thinking about again, the person who I mentioned earlier who I had been in a relationship with for nearly two decades, so I remember that there were so many times that he just seemed to have a problem with how I expressed myself. Any "negative emotions," like if I was angry, and a lot of the time, well, I would say probably 100% of the time, I had good reason to be angry because he would provoke me or constantly point out what I "had wrong with me," but let me see.
There's a really good example of when we hadn't been seeing each other for very long and I remember he said something to me that it was extremely shaming for me. What had happened was he noticed that I didn't really seem to ask very many questions whenever we would have conversations, and part of it was that I was nervous. I remember what he thought was that since I didn't ask questions, then that must mean that I'm just not interested in people.
What he said to me that just brought up all this shame is he said, "I've resigned myself to the fact that you'll never be interested in other people," which was a really, really crappy thing to say to somebody. He just made this assumption that if I don't ask questions, any of our conversations, then that must mean that I'm not interested. I'm not interested in people. When he said that, my face, my cheeks just became really hot and I felt this, I had this sick feeling in the pit of my stomach, which is how shame manifests itself for me. When he said that I just felt so unworthy and just so wrong.
Nowadays, if somebody were to say something as off the wall as that, I'm not sure what I would say to them. I definitely would not feel shame because I would know just how inappropriate it is to say something like that to someone and to basically make this assumption. Any time I felt anger or fear or sadness or frustration or anything, he always seemed to think that I was responding to the situation wrong. He always had a problem with how I reacted. It was always wrong as far as he was concerned and that was where a lot, the shame came from for me, shame around my emotions.
Looking back, I'll have to say that the ways that I've responded to situations have always been appropriate. I could be dealing with trauma or childhood trauma, or I could be triggered by something.
Emily: I was wondering because, in your example, you were talking about the difference between how for you if someone said that to you, it wouldn't have the same effect probably because now you're able to identify like, "They're trying to do this to me and I know that my reaction is okay."
Gloria: Right. Right.
Emily: I'm curious, in working with people on this and in your workshops, I know for a lot of us, there's shame that's in our adult lives, but then there's also a bunch of it we bring with us from our upbringings. We talked earlier in the episode about religion or just the things that our parents might have said to us, not realizing the impact it would have on us or maybe did realize the impact it would have on us, but either way, but that sometimes is harder to identify because it's like deeper in there. Have you found that to be true or does it kind of like you can apply this across the board?
Gloria: What I've found is part of that, but what I've also found too is that, if you have a community around you, people who you can talk to, people you can vent to. Say if you're experiencing microaggressions at work, for example, or say if you're in a relationship with somebody who shames you, or if your parents shame you or your church or whatever, what I tell people in my workshops is that it's just so important to have a community of the people who you can talk to and so you can realize that there were other people who have probably experienced the same things and you don't feel so alone anymore.
One of the other things that I found is that shame is so isolating. It's extremely isolating. That was another thing that I found in this relationship is that over years, I really hated to tell my friends about him or what he did or what he'd said or whatever, because deep down inside, I knew that something wasn't right but I was feeling so much shame and I was just too ashamed and embarrassed to even tell people what was going on.
Looking back, I think it would have been great if I had had somebody in my life who could have been really blunt with me and to point out what they see going on and to tell me that, "You really deserve way better than that. You can do better than that." I actually when I first got into the relationship, I would occasionally tell people things like for instance, I would tell them that, "Well, I'm in love with him, but he's not in love with me," and people would say, "Wow, that really doesn't sound right." Or I tell them about other things and they say, "Wow, that doesn't sound good to me."
Emily: If we want to talk about just an internal shame and how to get past that a little bit as well, because we've talked about it a bit about the shame that often occurs from another person, but I know personally for myself, I have felt shame for a lot of different reasons. For how smart I am compared to other people or not, or any number of things. Can we talk a little bit about that in terms of things like our own gender or sex or race or sexual orientation, even being polyamorous, our identity, and the shame that may come from things like that?
Gloria: Yes, one of the things that I do toward the end of the workshop is-- Well, first, I'll give some examples of people who definitely have no shame and I mentioned Lizzo for example. That's actually the section that I call, these are people who society thinks should be ashamed but who aren't. Then after that, then I ask everybody a question and I say, "What is it about you, or what is it about your background that society seems to think you should be ashamed of?" I'll hear things like, "Well, I'm trans," or, "I'm bisexual, "or, "I'm polyamorous," or, "I'm a sex worker," and people will name off all of these things. What that does actually is it helps them to see that they're not alone.
Jase: In a recording of one-year workshops that we all listened to before this episode, you talked about how people are much more likely to share all sorts of other feelings before they're willing to admit feeling shame. It's like even admitting feeling shame is shameful.
Gloria: Yes, in fact, that's something else that I bring up is that there's shame around feeling shame.
Jase: Yes, exactly.
Gloria: Which is a weird paradox in a way.
Jase: Right, but that's how it has such a stronghold on us because that's how we end up feeling so alone.
Emily: It's so cyclical.
Gloria: Yes, it really is and again that's where having a supportive community of people around you just makes all the difference in the world.
Emily: It sounds like specifically, you have been able over time to cut out the people in your life that don't represent that to you, that aren't supportive and good to you and then keep the people in your life who are, and that's really extraordinary to me because that's easier said than done sometimes.
Gloria: Yes, it is. Well, when I didn't like myself, which was actually the majority of my life until the cancer diagnosis, I would keep people around who were toxic and unsupportive, but I guess I-- Well, for one thing, I didn't really feel like I had any choices in the matter and I felt that I had to have somebody around.
Jase: Right, and that was just normal. "I should feel ashamed so that there's nothing wrong with people telling me that."
Gloria: Right. Well, and also not only normal, but it just felt familiar to me because like the household that I grew up in was very, very abusive, even to the point of domestic violence. I'm also a domestic violence survivor.
Jase: Sorry, just a second. Dedeker I lost her connection and she's just-
Dedeker: I'm back, I'm sorry I was trying to sneak in real quietly. I'm back on track.
Gloria: -that felt totally normal and familiar to me, but I cannot imagine doing that now. People like that won't even get the time of day from me. I just want to read something real quick. Now, I don't remember if I gave you this handout that I normally give out at the transcending shame workshops, but it's a handout that I made or a tip sheet whatever want to call it, Four Ways to Transcend Shame. If you could link to that or I could send it to you.
Jase: Absolutely.
Dedeker: Definitely.
Gloria: The four ways are to love and forgive yourself. I use this quote from John Bradshaw who wrote this book that was really, really important in the area of shame and I'll constantly quote from the book during the workshop. One thing that he said that I thought was really important as far as your being able to love and forgive yourself, is that toxic shame's greatest enemy is the statement, "I love myself. To say, I love myself can become your most powerful tool in healing the shame that binds you. To truly love yourself will transform your life."
Dedeker: Wow. It makes so much sense that it's-- Those two statements are just so diametrically opposed to each other, those two feelings, self-love and shame. I think it's not surprising that so many of us I think really struggle with self-love, I think because we've been trying to turn to the shame first, to a certain extent.
Gloria: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. I don't want to give the impression that I never feel shame anymore because that's not true. I will occasionally feel shame, but because of doing this work in the area of shame now I'm able to notice a lot quicker that I'm being shamed.
Dedeker: I'm wondering your opinion, Gloria, what do you think needs to happen on a more macro societal level when it comes to dealing with shame?
Gloria: Oh my gosh. That's a really difficult one because a lot of the shame is around things that you can't help. The color of your skin, your socioeconomic background, the family you grew up with. That's a really, really difficult one because something has to happen basically at the very top, and if the people who were in power, if they have racist attitudes, then there's really not a whole lot that you can do about it, but I guess I just have to get back to what I was saying earlier about have a community, have a supportive community around you.
Dedeker: Yes. I think even just the value of getting messaging around you're normal, like this is okay. I know that that's in my own journey, especially toward discovering my own sexuality and my own relationship orientation that was a really pivotal moment for me, even just knowing, "Oh my goodness, there's other people out there who feel the same way," and I know that's something that we get messages sent to us a lot from people being like, "Oh my goodness, it's so nice to know just that I'm not the only one and that this is normal and I'm not a weirdo for feeling this way."
The truth being that we are all weirdos for feeling this way to a certain extent, we're just weirdos outside- But even that little bit of counter shaming just goes such a long way, I feel. Kind of related, I want to pivot a little bit because you mentioned early on about your autism diagnosis coming really late in your life and I know that I've heard from a lot of people in our online community, from listeners of ours who are not neurotypical or who are on the autism spectrum or things like that, that there's also that special flavor of shame to work through as well and so I want to hear your personal experience getting this autism diagnosis at the age of 62, just last year. How has that affected your life and your approach?
Gloria: Wow. It's really interesting. I guess one of the things that I noticed is that I'm just a lot more accepting and a lot more compassionate with myself. Before, actually it was like I think 15 or so years ago that I finally started suspecting that maybe I was on the autism spectrum. That was around the time that I started hearing about Asperger syndrome, which I don't know if very many people call it that anymore because we found out that Hans Asperger was a Nazi sympathizer.
Dedeker: Oh, gosh. I didn't know that.
Jase: I hadn't heard that.
Gloria: Yes, a lot of people don't call it Asperger syndrome anymore. I just call it autism, but anyway, at the time, 15 years ago when it was called Asperger syndrome and I had just started hearing about it and reading what the characteristics were, and I thought, "Oh my gosh, that sounds just like me." I took one of those online tests to see if I had it and according to this online test which took like 10 minutes, it said that I didn't have it. Then last year, I talked to my therapist who is just great. She's kink-friendly and poly-friendly-
Jase: That's great.
Gloria: - LGBTQ friendly, and she also assesses people for autism. The assessments that I went through it was just several pages of just various tests. It was way more than that 10-minute online test that I took. Also one of my partners had to write a statement. I don't remember what questions he was asked, but just basically an evaluation of me. That was something that also helped my therapist to make the diagnosis.
I'm being way more open about it now, now that I know that I'm autistic. There are so many people who have told me that "Boy, I can't really believe you're autistic," or "I can't really imagine," but the thing is, I'm what some people would call a high functioning autistic, although I really don't like to use that terminology because, unfortunately, if people see me as high functioning, then it's easier for them to become angry with me if I respond to situations in certain ways that don't make sense to them.
I've had people over the years say, "Why did you say that?" or "Why did you respond this way?" All I could do was shrug. Now, being autistic, I know that I process information differently from other people and so I'll respond the way that makes sense to me.
Dedeker: It sounds like to a certain extent for you that this has been a freeing diagnosis.
Gloria: It really has been, really has been. I just wish that I had been diagnosed a lot sooner. I think it would have saved me just so much hassle and heartache and misunderstanding.
Dedeker: Of course. Yes, that makes sense. That makes sense.
Emily: Well, this has been a really amazing conversation about so many things, and thank you much for talking with us. Can we hear from you where people can go to find more of you, find more of your work, any upcoming projects that you want to promote?
Gloria: I'll be speaking at Minnesota Poly Con and that would be July 18th and it's online. I'm pretty sure that it's on Zoom.
Emily: Perfect. We'll have to check that out.
Gloria: Yes, yes, please do. Please do. So far, I don't have anything scheduled, but that always changes.
Dedeker: I'm bet you right now.
Gloria: Yes, really and I'm kind of frustrated because there were a few conferences in April and May that I was scheduled to speak. Actually, in June and July too. I was going to be speaking at Black and Poly Pride, which I think it was going to be either this week or last week.
Dedeker: Yes because we did a big interview with the organizers a couple of months ago.
Emily: They are so amazing.
Gloria: Yes. Really and then I was looking forward to speaking at Poly Dallas next month.
Dedeker: Same with us.
Gloria: I've never been to before and I think that's postponed to next year.
Dedeker: Yes. Well, with all these things, we're going to have to do just like party twice as hard next year.
Emily: Absolutely.
Gloria: That's about right.
Dedeker: Do workshops that are just twice as amazing.
Emily: Absolutely.
Gloria: Really.
Dedeker: Just really try to make up for it.