410 - Fallen Out of Love or Faded NRE? Listener Q&A
Our latest Q&A episode from our Patreon listeners is a great discussion addressing the following questions:
“If you and your long distance partner’s primary love language is physical touch, what are some creative ways to help each other meet that need?”
“My partner of 4.5 years is leaving me to be monogamous with someone he just met. We want to still be in each other's lives in a meaningful way - but the situation hurts a lot and a lot of my good old insecurities about not being good enough are coming up. Do you have advice for dealing with these kinds of insecurities and de-escalating a relationship in general?”
“Have you ever transitioned from a romantic and sexual relationship with a partner to a romantic but asexual relationship? What advice would you give to long-term nesting partners who want to maintain a loving, romantic relationship without sex?”
“What are some tips on handling friends and family who have traditional and moralistic ideas about sex and relationships and are shocked and scandalized by polyam norms?
“I was telling a friend about my wants and hopes about relationships, specifically that I would like to have a nesting partner but still keep separate bedrooms so that if one of us brought home a guest or another partner we wouldn't have to worry about kicking someone out of their own bed, and she was so scandalized! When I mentioned I wasn't going out having hookups constantly, she tried to 'reassure' me that she already understood I am 'not that sort of person.’”
“How do you help someone identify what “being in (romantic) love” feels like when they are questioning if that is what they still feel or if they have “fallen out of love” in a relationship after NRE has faded ? The narratives of “you just know” and “they become your world” don’t seem right.”
“How do you navigate a relationship where you would consider the person to be a romantic partner and they consider you to be a friend (but different than their other friends)?”
If you would like to submit your own question for us to address during a Q&A episode, become a Patreon supporter!
Transcript
This document may contain small transcription errors. If you find one please let us know at info@multiamory.com and we will fix it ASAP.
Jase: Today, we're covering a wide range of great questions from trying to stay friends after a breakup, to dealing with fading NRE and falling out of love, or creative ways to satisfy your touch needs in long-distance relationships. We love getting to answer your questions on these episodes, so thank you to everyone who submitted these and we look forward to getting more next month.
Emily: All right, everyone, let's start off our first question with a little bit of love languages. Somebody asked if you and your long-distance partner's primary love language is physical touch, what are some creative ways to help each other meet that need? They gave this little caveat "By long distance, I mean more than one time zone apart/in the thruple with an ocean/seeing each other requires a lot of planning type of long distance."
Jase: I see. Now I'm trying to figure out, is this, you alternatingly have these different types of long-distance relationship or do they just mean generally speaking? We're talking far enough apart, that it's not an hour drive, but-
Dedeker: Yes, I can't drive down for the weekend-
Jase: -there's ocean or a time zone or whatever.
Emily: -or a time zone. Yes. I think that that's what they mean by that for sure.
Jase: Got it.
Emily: Even a time zone, that does take some planning, significant for sure.
Jase: Unless you live right on that line, but anyway.
Emily: You just step across the line and you're like, "I'm in another time zone, wow." No, the very first thing I thought of with this is to create some anticipation for when it is that you are going to actually get to see that person. "I can't wait to brush your hair. I can't wait to give you a massage. I can't wait to put your genitals in my mouth," whatever it might be. Something along those lines.
Dedeker: Real sexy. Real sexy.
Jase: Yes. I'm still really stuck on imagining someone brushing my hair. That sounds wonderful.
Emily: It sounds really nice, yes. I'm not going to lie, my partner brushes my hair from time to time and it sounds great. It's so great. . Yes, it's so great. Something along those lines. I don't know. This is a tough one because yes, you don't get that physical touch from another person. Let me tell you, after a long period of time when I was in Asia, this didn't happen as much of this contract, but being in Asia, not having a significant other there for two and a half three months, it was tough. I'm like, "Somebody please touch me, God."
Dedeker: I think that there's a whole spectrum of getting other people to touch your partner, and what I mean by that is on one end of the spectrum is something like "I'll buy you a massage," or something. Something like that all the way up to the spectrum of maybe both or one of you are actually interested in platonic cuddling or going to a cuddle party or things like that. All the way up to you have other partnerships where you're getting those physical touch needs met as well. I know it's not the same, it's not a one-to-one replacement. It's not like flattening all the relationships and saying, "Oh whatever you have someone to touch and so it's fine." Of course, you want to touch your partner. There's something particular and juicy about that, but I think it's on that nervous system level of just getting the touch at all, I do think can help to stave off some of those particular feelings.
Emily: Oh, for sure.
Dedeker: You know that longing?
Emily: Yes.
Jase: I think when it comes to long-distance relationships and touch, there's two parts. There's one is, if your primary love language is touch, it probably just means you have that need for touch. Which goes along with what Dedeker was talking about, of finding other ways for that through cuddling or massage or something just to have your base-level needs for touch fulfilled. Same for your partner, encouraging them to do that, or offering that to them as a gift or something. Then I think the other part of it is with a love language of physical touch, there's also that this is how I show my affection or how I feel loved.
That's the one where we have to get a little creative with long distance. A couple of things that come to mind with this. One is that I find that sometimes the physical touch can be communicated through sending pictures to each other as well because our brains see the picture of the person as if they were close to us. We get a little bit of that feeling of the closeness of that intimacy by sharing more pictures, more selfies, just basic stuff. Doesn't have to be anything super fancy, but just, "Hey I'm thinking of you," maybe recording little short video clips for each other, use an app like Marco Polo or send video clips through Messenger or however you want to send those.
Something to get a little bit of that feeling of being close even if you can't touch. Then the other one that came to mind is consider experimenting with recording like ASMR-type stuff for each other.
Emily: Oh, have you done this for each other?
Jase: I have not, but it sounds like a fun thing to try.
Emily: Does it feel tactile in some way?
Jase: That's the idea for the people who really react to ASMR, they hear certain types of sounds and it is like a physical sensation that they feel like a tingling and like like, "Oh gosh, I feel all tingly hearing someone whispering into a microphone close in their ear." or the sound of crunching clay or cutting a bar of soap. There's all sorts of different things you can do, and you record it up real close and you get that really intimate close sound to the thing.
I think the version of this if you don't have a fancy microphone or professional recording equipment or anything like that, is just recording videos for each other or even just audio where you are very close to your phone that you're recording it on. Instead of that kind of, "Oh hey, I'm recording my Instagram, I'm holding my phone away from me and you've got to project your voice a little bit." It's more of that, "Hey, I just want to let you know I was thinking of you and I love cuddling you," and talking about those things, but in this much more close to the microphone, intimate way might help get some of those feelings of affection you get from physical touch without actually touching.
Dedeker: I know for some people, and I think this goes along with the ASMR thing, that for some people sharing a sensory experience together at the same time or close to the same time or whatever, can help some folks. It could be something like, "We're going to take a bath together at the same time in our separate locations, but maybe I'll set up my laptop in a dry place and we'll just chat or share a glass of wine in the bath," or whatever. That it's like we put both of our bodies through the same sensory experience or if it's like there's a particular blanket we both have that I'm going to cuddle up in or you're going to cuddle up in.
I am a big fan of the exchanging articles of clothing that smell like the other person to get a little bit of that, like if you want to sleep in your partner's shirt or cuddle with or stuff like that. Of course, none of these are going to be the replacement for the real thing, but I do think these are some of those things again that can help to recreate that sense of closeness. Maybe recreate some of the sensations that you would be getting, maybe trick your brain a little bit into doing that little bit of all the good happy chemicals release that it would get if you were actually there being held by your partner.
Emily: I'm wearing a sweater that I wore a lot when I was with the two of you in Japan, and when I put it on this morning, I was like, "It smells like the apartment that we stayed in." It reminded me of-
Dedeker: I hope that was an okay smell.
Emily: No, it was fine, it's distinct. Smells, they trigger a certain part of the brand and it was very much a thing where I was like, "This feels like I'm there again." That's really cool because that makes you feel closer to the person, I think if there is a distinct scent or something that reminds you of even if it's not necessarily the person specifically, but a thing that the two of you shared together, a place or a scent that evokes a memory, for example. I love that, yes.
Dedeker: Okay. Let's move on to our next question here. "My partner of four and a half years is leaving me to be monogamous with someone he just met. We want to still be in each other's lives in a meaningful way, but the situation hurts a lot, and a lot of my good old insecurities about not being good enough are coming up. Do you have advice for dealing with these kinds of insecurities and de-escalating a relationship in general?" Well, my first reaction right out the gate is oooof, I've been there. So painful.
Emily: We've all been there. Yes.
Dedeker: So painful. Good Lord. Good Lord. I don't know. Based on my own experience, I'm just like, "You don't have to be in each other's lives in a meaningful way, at least not right at this very second." I do think that in the non-monogamous community, this isn't necessarily a bad thing, but I do think a lot of us are like, "The mark of being a good polyamorous person and being really stable, and mature is being able to deescalate into friendship right away and we just carry on as though nothing ever changed and it's great. It all feels good and we just love each other so much and it doesn't matter when--" It does matter, it does matter.
It's okay that a relationship changes and if you're not ready for it to be a friendship, or you're not ready to be in each other's lives, or if it's too painful to be in each other's lives, it doesn't mean that you're emotionally stunted or emotionally immature, or that you're doing the wrong thing.
Jase: I think this shows up. I know I saw this in my own life even before I knew about non-monogamy. There's that idea of, "Oh, well, I really evolved to a mature person." Just make that transition from we're dating and now we're friends, and that somehow staying friends is better, or you've won the game somehow if you're able to do that. Yes, I've definitely seen myself and many other people put themselves through really struggling to have that relationship that's so different, that feels just constantly unsatisfying, or awkward, or unsure.
While it's certainly possible to do, it is hard, especially if there's a lot of pain there and it's not something that feels like, "Okay, yes, our relationships just naturally deescalated itself to this point, and we're just now officially transitioning it." When it is that we're taking away something from this relationship for some external reason. In this case, you wanted to be monogamous with this other person and that's not to say that it's 100% external from your relationship, but it's I think going to feel a little more painful and a harder transition to make, especially if you are not interested in making that.
I would say it doesn't have to be cut this person out entirely, but to give yourself some time and realize that it might take a year or two. It's not to say you've never talked to them during that two years, but it might take some time to feel comfortable and for that to feel good again. Don't rush to trying to have that be your relationship right away.
Emily: I just want to acknowledge four and a half years, that relationship, that amount of time, it's not trivial and that is really intense. I think I've been maybe on the side of leaving people for monogamy, maybe the two people I'm talking on a podcast with right now, in essence, but it does. We didn't really have the luxury of truly being separate from one another. There are pros and cons to that. I think there's a lot of-- We just had to deal with it and figure it out. Maybe that time spent away would have been beneficial and healed wounds faster perhaps.
There is something to be said for that. Just acknowledge the fact that that's a long period of time to be in a certain state with someone and then be thrust out of it, and there's going to be a lot of emotion there for sure.
Dedeker: I wanted to speak to the insecurities part of this question. This person said, "I'm having all these old insecurities about not being good enough." coming up. I think that ultimately when it comes to a breakup or a sudden breakup, that, yes, of course, we talked about this on the heartbreak and recovery episode a while ago that the brain really goes into overdrive trying to figure out why did this happen? How did this happen? How can I prevent this from happening again?
It's really easy to drum up those insecurities of like, "Oh, I wasn't X, Y, and Z enough. I didn't communicate enough. I didn't try hard enough. I wasn't attractive enough," or, "I didn't offer these things." A lot of that can come up and I think that really though at the end of the day, the way that someone ends a relationship with you or breaks up with you says more about them than it does about you. That isn't to say that you should never take any responsibility for the way a relationship ends or you should never examine that.
I just don't think that right now is a good time for examining that. I don't know. I think that in a vulnerable time like this, it's good to surround yourself with people who love you and who care about you. Hopefully, people who are willing to talk you up, but not necessarily have to couple it with talking down your ex especially if there's someone you still want to keep in your life. People who can just offer you love and who can remind you how badass you are, and just constantly fill you up with that good stuff to help drown out some of those really loud voices of insecurities.
Then more of the analysis of like, "How did this happen and what does this mean? Does this mean something about me?" That can all happen later when you're maybe in a little bit less of an emotionally vulnerable state.
Emily: I don't want to add insult to injury, but this immediately made me think of if somebody is in a non-monogamous relationship and then turns to monogamous relationship, there may be a moment at which that new partner says, "I don't want you to be a part of that person's life anymore." There may be decisions that have to be made by that person and they may not be the decisions that you necessarily want, meaning that person may decide that they don't want to be a part of your life anymore.
That is, I think, another part of this and hopefully, that won't be the case but my mind went to that because we've all definitely been in situations where we've had ultimatums thrown and people saying things like, "I don't want that person in your life anymore," because they're insecure.
Jase: I see. You mean as a friend at all?
Emily: Yes.
Jase: Right. Yes, yes, that's a good point. That is something to watch out for, but definitely something worth-
Emily: But that's not about you.
Jase: It's not about you.
Emily: That's not your problem. It may become your problem, but it's not your fault.
Jase: That is something that you could talk to this former partner about just if that comes up to clarify "Hey, that seems shitty" Maybe find a better way to say that, but to say like, "Hey, that's--" for your partner to dictate who you're friends with even if we're respecting your desire to be monogamous with this person, that seems a little troubling. If they still decide to just cut you out of their life entirely because of what that person says, I know this sounds harsh and is easier said than done, but then maybe they weren't really a very good friend, to begin with, and wouldn't be a very good friend if they're willing to cut you out for the sake of just because someone else told them to.
Dedeker: This is a little bit of getting ahead though because I think that with this, there's carrying the assumption that if this person has chosen to be monogamous with a partner, they're also choosing a lot of the super traditional monogamy values, which maybe they do or maybe they don't because unfortunately there's a little bit of the package deal often with traditional monogamous relationships is maybe this implied, but unspoken rule that you don't stay friends with your ex.
Emily: You're not friends with your exes.
Dedeker: Especially your most recent ex or what. I don't know. We don't know the details of this situation. Maybe that's a part of this, maybe it's not.
Emily: Yes, I don't know.
Jase: I did want to just quickly acknowledge though that if you're non-monogamous, there can be that feeling of guilt or like, "No one's really going to like me because I want to be non-monogamous," depending how long you've been doing it, especially if you're within your first few years. I think we still have a lot of that baggage, possibly even decades later. We have that cultural baggage of, "I'm difficult to be with now because I want non-monogamy," which is not true. There's a bunch of people out there who are like, "Gosh, I would only date someone who's non-monogamous." or, "Please, I'm looking for that." I did just want to bring that up and say, yes, that makes this extra hard. When someone breaks up with us, those insecurities can come up in general, but that can add this extra level when it's like, "Oh, society's also telling you, you're difficult to be with because you don't want monogamy," and this just seems like it's reinforcing that. I just want to say that out loud, and also to say that that's not true. There's a lot of people who are desperately looking for someone like you who does want non-monogamy, so just to remember that as well.
Emily: Shall we move on to the next question?
Jase: Sure, yes. Our next question here is, have you ever transitioned from a romantic and sexual relationship with a partner to a romantic but asexual relationship? What advice would you give to long-term nesting partners who want to maintain a loving romantic relationship without sex?
Emily: The first person people that I thought of was Jessica De Lover and her partner.
Jase: That is something they've talked about in the second season of their podcast, is how their marriage went from being sexual to not being sexual, but while still living together and raising their kids together. That could be an interesting resource to check out if you haven't all ready.
Emily: For sure, yes.
Jase: What do we think about this? I don't have the experience of doing this with someone I live with, but I have had several relationships that have done this transition, from we originally started out in a sexual relationship, and eventually that part we stopped doing or even started as a more physically affectionate, even if it wasn't sexual, per se, but then that part fell off. We still feel close to each other and connected to each other, and want to have a good relationship, but without that. I'm trying to think of how to generalize that advice because sometimes it's been easy and sometimes it's been really hard. I'm trying to look at what are the patterns of the times that's been easier or harder.
I think that communication is a big part of it, that for some people feeling like sex is removed from a relationship, can then get tied to those insecurities like we were talking about with the last question-
Emily: Like it feels like a failure.
Jase: Right, like I'm failing somehow, or I'm not desirable enough or that kind of stuff can definitely come up. However, it's been years since I talked about this, but in one of the relationships where this happened, the term that we came up with-- Just having a term for it helped her feel better about it was, taking friends with benefits, and we called it friends with a full benefits package. It's like we were affectionate, would cuddle, would go on dates, all of that kind of stuff, but there wasn't this physical, sexual type intimacy, even though we would still cuddle and be close with each other and things like that.
Just having a silly term for it helped that to not feel like, "Oh, then this is nothing now," because we still-
Emily: Like a micro script.
Jase: -have those cultural ideas that, if it's not this, then it's nothing. If it's not full-on romantic and sexual, then this is not a relationship, and getting away from that.
Dedeker: This question, it's a little bit hard without knowing exactly the history and the reason why this transition is happening, because there can be all kinds of reasons and I could see many, many different effects based on the reason. It's different if it's like, "Oh, because of illness," or just straight up, like the hydraulics of bodies not working, like sex just isn't a thing in the relationship anymore, but maybe it's still very affectionate or flirtatious, versus someone who feels like they've just completely fallen out of sexual attraction to their partner to--
I've worked with some people where it's like, "Yes, my partner has this very, very different sexual risk practices than I do and we can't reconcile it, and so I can't take the risk of having sex with them anymore." All reasons behind why people may make this particular transition, and I think each of those situations probably requires some different tactics and would probably bring up different feelings as well, especially if this is something that one person really wants, the other person doesn't really want.
Jase: That's true.
Dedeker: I do think something that can help with this is talking about things on a mental level. You can use a tool like the relationship anarchy smorgasbord, that helps you really break down, what are the parts of our relationship that are working really well and that we really like, are there types of physical affection that we do really want and still want to enjoy in a non-sexual way? Are there different types of sexual activity that maybe just don't involve, like is the issue about penetration, is it about this, is it about that? There's so many different options out there. It's not always this black and white of there is sex happening in the relationship or there's not sex happening in the relationship.
I think that's what I would recommend for people who are trying to make this transition of some kind, is just be open to exploring all of the possible avenues and options and, also be open to just understanding each other without necessarily trying to troubleshoot or negotiate, really understanding where each person is coming from. Sex can be a hugely charged topic, whether you're the person who wants the relationship to be asexual or not.
Emily: There's a lot of intimacy that can still happen without sex being a part of it, I think, in relationships, and even cuddling, touching, understanding one another, in a very intimate manner, all of those things can feel really close. I've had relationships with people where sex for one reason or another didn't end up being the thing that we did. Often, that was just mechanic-wise or whatever, and it ended up not being the thing that occurred, but there were still a lot of great things that we got to do together, and that we got to enjoy with one another. That was really wonderful and those relationships still meant a great deal to me.
I think that is so important to acknowledge and understand that we can have great relationships with people, and sex doesn't need to be the thing that pushes a relationship into one category or another. It can still be romantic, even without, especially penetrative sex being a part of it. Kissing, cuddling, having a wonderful experience with that person, a deep conversation, all of that is really meaningful. Embrace it, whatever it is that makes the two of you tick and be together.
Jase: I would say to go along with that, to think about what of those things makes your relationships so special. I think for a lot of people, the fact that I have sex with this person is what makes this relationship more special, and that's culturally, we put all this importance on sex to think that. I think that may be why the friends with the full benefits package thing worked out in that relationship, it was hinting at, this is something special that it's not, "Just a friendship". I know there's all sorts of baggage involved in the way that we label these things and think about them, but that doesn't mean they aren't part of how we think or how we feel. Maybe look at those things Emily was talking about, and really, together collaborate on "This is what's so cool and unique and special about our relationship." and really leaning into that and enjoying that connection that you have to show yourselves, and maybe everyone else in a way, "This is why we're special."
It doesn't just have to be because we have sex with each other. We have a couple of more questions to get to here, but before we do that, we're going to take a quick break to talk about some ways you can support this show. If you value this information and you love getting this out there into the world for free, then taking a moment to check out our sponsors or to check out our Patreon really does help our show. For these question and answer episodes, these are all taken from questions submitted by people in our Patreon groups on Discord and Facebook.
Definitely go check those out if you're interested, and check out our sponsors right now, because if you visit them, it does directly support our show.
Emily: Let's continue on with more questions. Here's another one. What are some tips on handling friends and family who have traditional and moralistic ideas about sex and relationships, and are shocked and scandalized by polyam norms? I was telling a friend about my wants and hopes about relationships specifically that I would like to have a nesting partner but still keep separate bedrooms so that if one of us brought home a guest or another partner, we wouldn't have to worry about kicking someone out of their own bed.
She was scandalized when I mentioned that I wasn't going out having hookups constantly. She tried to reassure me that she already understood that I'm not that sort of person. Oh, there's a lot of baggage there. Yikos.
Jase you had, maybe not exactly this happen but I think I did when I first started being nonmonogamous when I had a specific friend say to me like, "This just doesn't seem like you, this isn't the kind of person that you are. I know who you are and this isn't who you are." That kind of thing. It's like, "Wait, what? What does that even mean? Why do we have such an idea of what a good and a bad person is, or a scandalous and not scandalous person is," I don't know. It's really unfortunate and it's tough to have to go through feeling like you are disappointing a friend or a family member because of the kind of relationship style that you're in.
Jase: For sure and that you might have some of your own baggage going on about this, especially if this is new to you, of your own feelings of guilt or shame that can come up and that's hard. I was going to say, we could probably do a whole episode just on this topic and then I checked real quick and we did actually, but it was a long time ago. Episode 189.
Emily: Way back.
Jase: 2018 is when that one came out. Was talking at that about what do you do when friends or family members give you backlash about talking about non-monogamy? Maybe that's something we could revisit in the future but for now, yes, let's talk about this one a little bit.
Dedeker: Man. I always come back to just-- I think it comes down to how much energy you got in that particular moment for that particular conversation.
Emily: That's a good point.
Dedeker: The piece that's standing out to me is specifically the contrast of what seems very normal to polyamorous folks, seeming very shocking and scandalizing. Like this idea of "Oh, yes, if we're able to, we can have separate bedrooms." The idea that this doesn't seem terribly controversial, I think, in most non-monogamous spaces. Not that it's a standard practice or anything, or something that everybody chooses to do or can do, but yes, I think a lot of people would be like, "Oh yes, that totally makes sense," and then to other people not quite on the inside are like, "Oh my goodness."
I think it's up to you to decide, do you want to sit down and give the TED Talk on what tends to be normative, "normative practices" for people in alternate relationships or values? You can, I don't think it's a bad thing. If you think that your friend is open, you can talk about that or do you want to just be, "Yes, well this is what I want to do, so let's talk about something else."
Emily: It can be a battle, yes.
Dedeker: Sure. Do you want to open yourself up to having the debate? Do you feel like yourself and this friend or family member are able to have a friendly debate, able to have a disagreement of ideas that doesn't result in a ton of tension? Then maybe that's cool. Maybe you do want to, or maybe this is just going to be a fight that you don't want to have, and you just find a way to politely close the topic without feeling you need to shrink yourself and apologize necessarily for what you want. I think for me, it always comes down to the energy question.
Emily: I've said this before and I'll say this again. Time is a thing that matters when you are discussing-
Jase: That classic phrase, time is the thing that matters.
Dedeker:
Emily: No, is a thing that matters when you are discussing how you want to conduct and live your life. All I can say is that I have had conversations with both my mother and one of my best friends about polyamory at one point, and they were disappointed in me and not all about it. Then later on, years down the road, they were like, "Wow, I was in the wrong there." I'm like, "Yes, yes you were." It's nice because they understood that finally and they also realized, "Hey, all is well. It's all good," and I can still have a great relationship with this person, even if maybe, in terms of my relationship with my friend, we didn't talk that much for a couple of years because of polyamory and that sucked. I was best friends with this person and that was hard, but it was for the best because they had to get their head out of their ass.
Jase: Yes.
Dedeker: Sure.
Emily: Allow for that time if you can.
Dedeker: Yes, I think if someone, well, I don't know, doing anything out of the ordinary can trigger weird stuff for people. We've all had stuff kick off with friends and family members because the very idea of non-monogamy brings up all their own stuff that makes them really uncomfortable or it
Emily: Well, is my marriage not valid to you?
Dedeker: Yes, brings up their own-
Emily: talking about you, yes.
Dedeker: Brings up their own values that they're projecting onto you about, "Oh, what that must mean about you, my friend as a person. If you're doing--" They got their own stuff.
Emily: What do you think about me then?
Dedeker: Yes. Either y'all are able to have those conversations and it's fine, or they can't get over it and it's not fine, or they get over it eventually because they're actually your friend and love you.
Jase: Yes.
Emily: Yeah, option C is what happened to me.
Jase: It is worth noting, like Emily said, that it might take time. I know that for myself, I had a similar less extreme reaction from a close friend of mine that was more like, "Why is this a thing that you need to talk about? What about commitment? You're missing all these parts of relationships," and it didn't cause us to not talk. We just didn't really talk about that very much and it was a weird awkward part of our relationship for also probably a couple of years and then at one point, he did apologize out of nowhere.
Emily: Yes, the same.
Jase: I wasn't even so worried about it, but he was like, "Hey, you know, back early on, I said some things and I'm sorry about that. I've learned more about it since then and I am sorry," and I was just like, "Oh yes, for sure. No, it's been a great story I've used on the podcast."
Emily: Exactly. Thank you for the podcast spotter, I appreciate it.
Jase: Totally. I do want to take it back a little bit to the question here and looking back through the question. It's about, how do we handle these people? Tips on handling friends and family who are scandalized and freaked out by this. I think the thing Dedeker said first is worth really considering for yourself of, how much energy do you have at any given moment about how much do you want to get into it? That's definitely good to think about to take care of yourself. Then when it does come to how do you handle these people, my advice is to feel out what are the parts that scandalize the most and what are the parts where they seem to have a glimmer of understanding, or at least can get why someone might want that even if they don't.
That could be something very small about just being less co-dependent. Maybe they're like, oh, they've heard about that and they know okay, that makes sense. I can get behind that. Is to look for those things and to talk about those and find areas where you do agree rather than shoving in their face all the stuff that freaks them out and scandalizes them. While that does suck to feel you have to hold some of yourself back or that you maybe can't talk as openly to this friend as you used to be able to, for advice or your hopes and desires, one is, hopefully, it'll get better over time, but two is that you're not going to get anywhere by just trying to force them to confront those things, and you're definitely not going to convince them with logic.
Just trying to logic them through, if they're not ready to make that mental shift, that's not going to help and it's actually probably going to make it worse. I would advise you against trying to convince them through well-thought-out extemporaneous speeches or things like that. Don't do that. That's not going to get you very far. Maybe to just gradually talk about the things you do relate on and gradually maybe add in more things as it becomes more normal for them, then you could maybe experiment a little bit. Then the other part of it is, find some other people to talk to that you can talk more openly about. It's not like, "Oh, now I can't talk to anyone because I can't talk to this friend." Hopefully, you'll get there. You may not, hopefully, you will, but to also realize, "Okay, I've got to find some other support networks and places where I can talk about this."
Emily: Yes.
Dedeker: Let's take it to our next question. How do you help someone identify what "Being in romantic love feels like" when they're questioning if that is what they still feel or if they have fallen out of love in a relationship after NRE has faded? The narratives of "You just know" and "They become your world" don't seem right. I see. Okay. That was worded a little bit strangely. I think how I'm understanding it is that, yes, I know someone who is wondering, "Oh, am I still in love with this person?"
Emily: I'm I still in love with that person.
Dedeker: This is just because it's after the NRE has faded.
Emily: Yes.
Jase: Right, or have they actually fallen out of love? This could be one of those, I have a friend who's wondering, this could be the question asker or this could be a friend, yes.
Emily: Yes, okay. Again, this is difficult because we have just so many layers of social conditioning at play here. We have a lot of competing narratives about how love is supposed to feel or how it's supposed to go coming from all sides, from all ends of the spectrum. Everything from yes, it should just feel magical and it should just be easy. You should feel great if not all the time, then most of the time in the relationship, all the way to the opposite side of, yes, sure it's great at first and then it's going to be a slog and just every relationship is going to feel like a slog. Just accept that and get over that. It is hard I think to tell the difference there sometimes.
Jase: Some things to consider here is that when that NRE fades, there's less of that intensity of how you're going to feel. I think something to look at is just how excited do you feel still to be with this person and share your life with them because it's possible that it's like, "Hey, you know what? My excitement about this person is faded and now that it's fading, I'm realizing I'm meh on sharing my life and my time and my energy with this person. Maybe it is this relationship was great and maybe it was a really cool sexual connection, but that's all it was. As that's fading, maybe this relationship needs to change shape. Maybe it could be something where that's still part of it from time to time or maybe not."
On the other hand, it could be "Okay, that's faded and I have this idea that real love should just be so exciting and should always feel good." It doesn't. No relationship is ever good 100% of the time. Maybe it is just that "Okay, I have to change how I think about this relationship and what I value in this relationship. The value doesn't come from the fact that I'm so giddy constantly all the time. Maybe the value comes from the fact that we have some deeper trust that we have some more in-jokes and deeper communication we've developed over the course of our relationship."
I think that's where I would try to start looking is "What is it that I'm feeling here?" Is it that I'm like, "I don't really even really want to spend my time on this or is it just I'm worried because there's not a certain spark that I was told there would be always?"
Emily: Yes. To build off of that. I would just look and question the moments of intimacy that the two of you have together. What are the things that you share? What are the excitements that you have together, the fun activities that you get to do that are intrinsic to the relationship that the two of you have built, and what really is beneath the surface because I think a lot of NRE is surface level as I don't want to be mean, but so much of it is just "I want you to fuck me and I want to-"
Dedeker: I want to smell you.
Emily: Yes. "I want to smell you. I want to have the feeling of being around you because that's so cool," but that doesn't last. You're absolutely right. There has to be something deeper than that ultimately. I would question those things. Are those things still present and do you still have a meaningful desire to want to be around them in a way that still excites you and makes you interested in what can be cultivated out of this relationship? What can you learn about yourself and about them and the world around you? What is it that you two share?
Dedeker: I think I-
Emily: Those deeper questions.
Dedeker: I also wonder about is this a pattern that you've noticed, is this friend or if it's you actually-- Has this been an ongoing thing of doing that NRE hopping activity of dating someone, getting really into it and then once the NRE fades in it's like, "Oh, I guess they really weren't the one actually. I guess I'm falling out of love." and then hopping into another one because I think that adds a whole other layer to the story. Assumptions about how a relationship is supposed to feel or getting a sense of what are the markers of looking for more bonded love?
When that chemical cocktail starts to shift and our brains are away from that really, really intensive NRE feelings into the more like established close-knit tight bonding feelings. I think that's a part of it too, is this about I've associated just the high with being love and if it's quiet and calm and stable, then I'm bored?
Jase: Maybe something to add into that too is to look at, just think about it in terms of if I spent the next 20 years with, pick whatever number you want, could even be one year, five years, whatever. If I spent that much time where this was my relationship, do I still find that rewarding and valuable? That also then leads to some of those other questions of, for example, if this is a monogamous relationship right now and you're thinking, "Well gosh, I do value this relationship but I miss that excitement or I feel like I still want other sexual variety in my life or something."
Maybe non-monogamy is something to think about and to discuss with this person and see if maybe that's something that you want in your life that may be you do want that excitement and ability to have newness, but that doesn't necessarily have to come at the cost of just ending this relationship and saying, "Oh, I fell out of love in this relationship." or, on the other hand, you might look at that and say what, "Yes, I do feel really fulfilled by this even if that sparkle is gone." Maybe it is just coming to that realization that the movie's all cut off after the NRE and they don't show you the rest.
Maybe it is just, "Hey, yes, this is what a good, solid, stable relationship feels like." Can you trust that person? Do you enjoy your time with that person? Do you feel cared for by that person? Do you like to care for that person? These questions of is that there and is that satisfying and that's what you want? Great. If it's not, maybe look at non-monogamy or just re-evaluate, is this the relationship we want or maybe we want this to be a different relationship? I don't know, I'm curious about the two of you if you've experienced anything like that where you've came down on one side or the other when you've had that question come up?
Dedeker: I think in recent years whenever I've noticed that shift, oh gosh, it's never really been flipping a switch necessarily. I've noticed-
Emily: Yes, it is gradual.
Dedeker: -fluctuations. Yes, it's gradual. It also goes back and forth. I think I've had the great benefit of being able to have several long-term relationships and I don't know, I find that in long-term relationships sometimes it really does go back and forth where I go through periods of almost feeling like that NRE again for a partner and then going into just the more calm, stable, less exciting parts. I don't know, for me, it feels a little bit more holistic that if I feel like I'm, oh, maybe I'm falling out of love with someone. It's not just about things don't feel exciting anymore. Usually, there's other things at play as well. I have other complaints, it feels maybe a little bit boring. I don't know. That's usually not enough to me to sound off the alarm bells, but that's just me.
Emily: Yes. I would've to agree with that. I think I give things time, pretty ample time, so I can't say that I've ever invested an amount of NRE time where it feels it's going well and then just ended a relationship once it starts to feel a little bit more normalized, a little bit more I understand the routine here that's going on. I still want to invest my energy into it because I've given it that moment and because it's worth it to me.
I think, sometimes that change, that shift can be a real turning point for a relationship. Sometimes when you stop having the facade of excitement, reality starts to set in and a person's true colors show up and then it doesn't become as good as it once was. I can think of a specific relationship that Dedeker and I were both a part of that ended in that manner unfortunately and that person ended up it being not the person that I thought that they were at the beginning and that ultimately didn't work out.
Dedeker: That's also, there's so many other issues. Like that's what - There's so many other issues. It wasn't just about it settled into like a normal-
Emily: No, definitely not.
Dedeker: -routine. It was like, no, lots of other problems. .
Emily: I don't know, I mean maybe had the NRE still been there, it would've still happened the exact same way. I do wonder if that was a contributing factor at all. I don't know. I don't know. It's just an interesting confluence of events that occurred at the same time.
Jase: You did just get me thinking about some examples of less extreme versions of that within nonmonogamy where I've found for myself, I've had many times, and I've talked about this before on the show, but many times where during that NRE phase, it's not so much that I liked this person and once that wore off, realized I didn't like them. It was more like, during NRE I overcommitted myself to a relationship. Maybe spent way more time than I would eventually want to later on, or just got like really, I don't know, emotionally intimate with this person. Doing a lot of things together, entwining our lives really quickly during that NRE.
Then as that fades, having that difficult transition of, "Oh gosh, it's not that I don't like this person, but I want some of these pieces of myself back, or some of these parts of my life and my schedule back." That's hard. That's not always a thing people let you take back without causing some problems in that relationship. It is making me think of that issue too, of maybe it's not about, "I don't like this person, but just, ooh, I've maybe overcommitted here. If this were someone that I saw once a month, maybe I'd still think this was great," or once a week or whatever it is. I don't know your situation, but maybe in a slightly different circumstance, this could still be great but I over-committed by following that traditional trajectory of, "Oh, I have strong feelings, so therefore it's love. Therefore I should be entwining my relationship in this certain way." Now realizing, oof, okay, now I want some of that back.