560 - I'm Solo Poly, But I Want More: Listener Q&A
Today’s listener questions
We’re tackling two similar questions from listeners about desiring more anchored partnerships despite being solo polyamorous. We’ll be talking about escalating current relationships and making time for more entwined connections while still engaging with existing partners. These questions have been slightly edited for time and clarity:
“Hi Multiamory!
I (she/her) have been in a relationship for almost 2 years now with Nathan (he/him). Our relationship started as casual, and grew into something more, however, we aren't quite partners. He has always had a couple of partners and some other casual encounters in his life, whereas I mostly only see him.
Predictably I am often left feeling like I want more. I have been working with a therapist for a few years to learn to date and be sexual again after some significant trauma...and during my time with Nathan, I have absolutely flourished. We have amazing sex. We also can chill and have deep conversations during our time together, which is typically one weekday evening every couple of weeks, not overnight.
However, I want more in my life. I want a lot of the more "boring" parts of a relationship: I want companionship, support, someone to take to my office holiday party, someone to have a lazy Saturday morning with. I'm in my late 40s and I'm getting tired. Although I am active in the BDSM scene and other hobbies, I've much more of a homebody than I was a decade or two ago, and I've realized that as I age, I want to live with a partner. This is not something that I wanted when I was younger at all, I used to strongly identify with being solo poly.
Is it feasible for me to keep seeing Nathan? Or is it just setting myself up for heartbreak? I don't want to lose the great sex and relationship that we do have, but I also don't want to continuously leave our dates feeling like I want more. Please advise.
Thanks!!
Wanting More in Washington”
“It's cuffing season! I (she/her) have been practicing solo polyamory for a long time and am starting to desire a more domestically entwined relationship (seeing each other more than 1x week, shared finances, insurance, maybe living together, etc)--what most people might call a "primary" partner.
I have two boyfriends (both he/him) already--one is relatively new and very casual, the other I've been dating for over a decade. Neither partner will ever escalate into that shape of relationship for a number of reasons.
I'm finding that there's a lot of cognitive dissonance with searching for someone to become your "top priority" when you already have a high level of emotional intimacy and shared history with someone else. It's hard to get out of the habit of, for example, confiding in your longest-duration partner first. You want to invest your energy into the new person in the hopes that it will grow into the relationship you want, but there's no way to accelerate the new relationship to reach parity with your existing boyfriend's levels of intimacy. And it seems intimidating for the new person if they want something "serious" with you but can't help feeling like they're competing/comparing with this long history.
I don't want to have to break up with my boyfriends in order to find someone more "serious" but even in poly circles I don't ever seem to hear about this kind of transition--it's either "monkeybarring" from a previous nesting relationship or starting from fully single). I'm looking for advice on how to open myself up (emotionally and practically) to serious relationship opportunities while still maintaining a "less committed" relationship. I'd also love better language for how to explain this to future potential partners!
Saying “So Long” to Solo”
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Transcript
If you find any transcription errors, please let us know at info@multiamory.com and we will fix it ASAP.
Jase: I would advise, take pressure off of it. Don't think about it as, "I need to find someone who I'm going to have this entwined, escalating relationship with," but just think about, "I'm going to find people to date." I know I'm looking for that, but don't worry about each of your dates heading that way too quickly and also worrying about, "I've really got to filter down to someone who already knows that they want that." Just get out there and date. I know that's easier said than done, but take the pressure off of it. Just go on some dates, meet people in person. If you want to prescreen with a video call, sure, but actually go on dates just to get more data for yourself and more possibilities for yourself.
Jase: Welcome to the Multiamory Podcast. I'm Jase.
Emily: I'm Emily.
Dedeker: And I'm Dedeker.
Emily: We believe in looking to the future of relationships, not maintaining the status quo of the past.
Dedeker: Whether you're monogamous, polyamorous, swinging, casually dating, or if you just do relationships differently,
Dedeker: we see you and we're here for you.
Jase: On this episode of the Multiamory Podcast, we're answering listener questions about seeking more in your relationships. We actually have two questions from two different listeners on a similar theme. While they both feel happy in their existing partnerships, they've both realized that they want more entanglement and more life partnership, something closer to a primary partner, anchor partner, nesting partner. And so the question is, is it feasible to try to escalate an existing partnership? If you're already spending a lot of time with current partners, how do you make space for more entwined partnerships in new partnerships? If you're interested in learning more about our fundamental communication tools that we reference on this show all the time, you can check out our book, Multiamory: Essential Tools for Modern Relationships. Which covers our most used communication tools for all types of relationships. You can find links to buy it at multiamory.com/book in written, paper, digital, and audio formats.
Dedeker: And our quick disclaimer before we start here is that we have spent a lot of time studying healthy relationship communication, but part of what makes relationships so interesting is that they are all very different and every situation is unique. So we encourage you to use your own judgment and seek professional help if needed. Ultimately, you're the only true expert in your own life and feelings, and your decisions are your own. And these questions that we are about to discuss have been edited for time and clarity.
Emily: Yeah. So I'm gonna go ahead and dive in. I'm gonna read both of these questions. I thought it was just this nice serendipity that we got these two listener questions that happened to be along the same theme, but also slightly different nuances. So here's our first one. Hi, Multiamory. I have been in a relationship for almost two years now with Nathan. Our relationship started as casual and grew into something more. However, we aren't quite partners. He has always had a couple of partners and some other casual encounters in his life, whereas I mostly only see him. Predictably, I'm often left feeling like I want more. I've been working with a therapist for a few years to learn to date and be sexual again after some significant trauma. And during my time with Nathan, I've absolutely flourished. We have amazing sex. We also can chill and have deep conversations during our time together, which is typically one weekday evening every couple of weeks. Not overnight. However, I want more in my life. I want a lot of the more boring parts of a relationship. I want companionship, support, someone to take me to my office holiday party, someone to have a lazy Saturday morning with. I'm in my late 40s and I'm getting tired. Although I'm active in the BDSM scene and other hobbies, I'm much more of a homebody than I was a decade or two ago, and I've realized that as I age, I want to live with a partner. This is not something that I wanted when I was younger at all. I used to strongly identify with being solo poly. Is it feasible for me to keep seeing Nathan? Or is it just setting myself up for heartbreak? I don't want to lose the great sex and the relationship that we do have, but I also don't want to continuously leave our dates feeling like I want more. Please advise. Thanks. That is from wanting more in Washington. And then I'm going to jump straight into our next question. Which starts out, it's cuffing season announcement. If anybody didn't know, it's cuffing season now. I have been practicing solo polyamory for a long time, and I'm starting to desire a more domestically entwined relationship. So seeing each other more than once a week, shared finances, insurance, maybe living together, et cetera, what most people might call a primary partner. I have two boyfriends already. One is relatively new and very casual, and the other I've been dating for over a decade.
Jase: Neither partner will ever escalate into that.
Emily: Shape of relationship for a number of reasons. I'm finding that there's a lot of cognitive dissonance with searching for someone to become your top priority when you already have a high level of emotional intimacy and shared history with someone else. It's hard to get out of the habit of, for example, confiding in your longest duration partner first. You want to invest your energy into the new person in the hopes that it will grow into the relationship you want, but there's no way to accelerate the new relationship to reach parity with your existing boyfriend's levels of intimacy. And it seems intimidating for the new person if they want something serious with you but can't help feeling like they're competing or comparing with this existing long history. I don't want to have to break up with my boyfriends in order to find someone more serious, but even in poly circles, I don't ever seem to hear about this kind of transition. It's either monkeybarring from a previous nesting relationship or starting from fully single and looking for advice on how to open myself up emotionally and practically to a serious relationship opportunities while still maintaining a quote unquote less committed relationship. I also love better language for how to explain this to future potential partners. And that is from saying so long to solo.
Jase: Wow. Yeah. I mean, just right out the gate, I think that both of these people have a lot of insightfulness. They seem very aware of what's going on and the challenges. They've clearly put a lot of thought into this. And so I just want to say kudos, props to both of these question askers.
Dedeker: Well, actually what just occurred to me, I have no idea who either of you are and if you even swing this way, but maybe we can hook the two of you up. With each other.
Emily: Yes, they both did say that their partners are all he/him. So, you know, maybe though.
Dedeker: We can't assume, Jase, none of them said what their sexual orientation was. We cannot assume.
Jase: So, yeah, if you two want to identify yourselves in the, you know, in the members Discord group, you could go ahead and do that.
Emily: We'll take credit for it also.
Jase: For your very happy, of course, nested life together.
Jase: I also just want to acknowledge—
Emily: Well done on knowing what it is that you want and realizing that that's a change from what you sort of identified as for so long. Because I do think a lot of us do get wrapped up in our identities and it can be very difficult to transition away from that and realize that you want something new. And so just that acknowledgement and that realization that, okay, we are stepping into a new phase of life here. And with that comes new things that I want and new things that I'm yearning for. It's cool and well done to both of you for that.
Jase: Yeah. So what came to my mind just thinking about experiences I've had that are close to this or, people I've known who've gone through things close to this is often actually has to do with having kids. That that's often the debate that I see people go through is this, I've been polyamorous for a long time or some kind of non monogamous. I really like that, but I really want to have kids and I'm single. Finding is just much harder to find someone who wants to do that, who doesn't already have their own kids or doesn't already have a more entangled nesting partner who wants to do that, or the people who don't already have those things don't want those things. And so I've had a couple different people who went different directions. One ended up, she broke up her relationship with me and all of her other partners to be like, this is important enough to me that I'm going to switch to looking for monogamous connections. I think I'd be happy with that. And for me, the more important thing is being able to have a kid and develop that kind of relationship. And I think it'll just be easier that way. And then the other person didn't do that, and he just ended up being like, well, I guess having kids is not something that I'm going to do in my life after all. Like, I thought for a long time that it was, and for him realizing, well, actually, maybe that doesn't need to be my priority as much. So that was just what came to mind. These two people, it's not about that. It's not about having kids specifically. And so I think there's a lot more flexibility. There's a lot more options here, but it certainly is tricky. And this idea of like, I think
Dedeker: they're coming at it from two different directions, right?
Jase: The second question is more about how do I talk to new partners and how do I open myself up to the sort of connection I want while having these two existing partners that I'm already very comfortable with and one that's been very long term. So there's a lot of, you know, trust there as well. Then the other one, it's a little more of, it seems less concerned about relying on the existing relationship and more of a, is this existing relationship gonna keep frustrating me? That it can't become the relationship I want. But I think that there's a lot of nuance in both of these, so I think will be good to get into.
Dedeker: Well, something both of them mention is I don't want to have to break up with my existing partners in order to create space for someone else to come in that I want to entwine with. And I think that makes a lot of sense. I actually had it reminds me of a client I had once where they and their partner ran into this crossroads. So their partner was, I think, older than them. So slightly at a different chapter of life. And their partner had realized, yeah, I do think I want to start to prioritize this. It was about kids again. I want to prioritize this finding someone to have kids with. And that's not going to be with you, right? My client was clear, like, no, I'm not ready to even think about that. Or I'm pretty sure I don't want to have kids. And then there's a lot of pain because then they sort of had to go through this, like, well, I guess we're gonna de-escalate. We're gonna, like, really formally de-escalate, not completely break up, but we are gonna de-escalate so that you have the space to go find somebody else to have kids with. And, yeah, like, I can understand the logical thought process behind that, but as you can imagine, like, a lot of pain, a lot of pain. Like, I think especially if you're still trying to maintain some kind of relationship to feel like, okay, I'm gonna officially go through, like, being downgraded, essentially, where you're gonna spend less time. You're gonna confide in me less, right, so that you can turn your energy towards somebody else. And not that that's like an impossible situation to get through. Like, I think some people could weather that, but I think for a lot of people that's just really, really hard. And so I guess that's what I'm chewing on here is, yeah, I totally understand, like, for instance, what our second question said about how I already have this habit of like, I go and I confide in my longest duration partner. And it seems like underneath that question is like, should I stop doing that in order to go confide in somebody else? Or should that not be the way that things go? And I think that, yeah, that's what I'm chewing on is like, how do you create space so that, yeah, you could have another partner that you confide in without it needing to be this official, okay, I need to officially put my other partners on the back burner or put them in the fridge. Does that make sense? Like, is that... Put them on ice. Surely that has to be avoidable, right?
Jase: Yeah. Well, it's also making me think about that situation where, you know, I had the partner who broke up to be monogamous. And in that case, like, I wish that it could have just been more of a downgrade. I mean, we were already a little bit not comet-like, but not, you know, not seeing each other super often. I was also traveling a lot. But I wish that that had been able to keep going. But obviously, in her case, it was to be monogamous, so that wouldn't really work out with the type of relationship we had. So I don't want to rule out that while that can be uncomfortable and difficult, like I understood that she wanted things that I didn't want to provide, right? That I wasn't interested in having kids with her, for example, right? And so, like, that was clear to me. And so I guess I would have rather had the flexibility to have other options than just kind of an all or nothing. So I guess I'd be on the camp of if I'm these other partners, even if it meant a little bit of de-escalation, they might be okay with that. They might be understanding and go, yeah. I want you to get what you want too, and I don't want to lose you completely in order for you to get that. But that'll be a conversation to have.
Emily: Absolutely. I think the immediate thing that I thought about was, well, what do these partners think about this whole thing? The question of, okay, I feel like I really want something that you are going to not be able to provide, and therefore we have options. We have options about how this relationship is going to be conducted. How I'm going to fit into your life, how other people might fit into the existing sort of configuration that we have, and that that might change things or it might not. Because I do think if they're only seeing each other once in a while, like maybe every week, for instance, I know Jase, when I lived with you, for example, we saw each other most of the time, but then we would have date nights each week with other people, for example. And if there is a way that that could still exist that you keep these relationships in your life in roughly the same manner that you currently are while also fostering a new connection that is more primary, more we live at home together and we, you know, are doing specific things together that we might not be doing otherwise. Then I think it is possible to keep those relationships still in your life. But but again, like you said, not everybody is necessarily going to want that or they're going to maybe expect other things or not want to be downgraded or, I don't know, it just, if it does change things significantly, then that's, I think, where the discussion comes into play. And something like a radar or something like a talk about, this is what I am feeling, this is what I'm wanting. How does that work in the scope of what it is that you feel and want as well?
Dedeker: Yeah, well, I'm glad Emily brought up the communication piece because, so in both of these questions, there was some version of it is clear that my existing partnerships are not going to provide the things that I want. So I read that and I'm kind of like, okay, I'm assuming that means there's been some communication around that. So I feel like that's step number one, that if there hasn't been a communication, if you're just trying to read between the lines, you know, if you're just picking up these breadcrumbs of, okay, well, my partner said this that one time about not wanting to live with someone. And then they said this this other time about being really busy and not having a lot of time for a partner. And then they said this, then they said that. And so I've then come to the conclusion that means they're not going to provide for me what it is that I want. That's a big ol assumption that may not be true. And so I guess that's maybe the pre step here is check, like, have I just created a story around this person? Now that doesn't mean that the story's wrong necessarily, right? You may be coming to the right conclusion, but have I just picked up these little breadcrumbs, made a story out of it? And if that's the case, then that's a good prompt to like, hey, have a conversation. And the conversation doesn't have to be, hey, I want all these things. Can you give me give them to me. Right. It can't just be, hey, let's Define the relationship, you know, to use the overused term. Like, let's put our heads together and just talk about our relationship and let me talk about what I'm seeing in this chapter of my life and what I'm hoping for. So there's that. Right. Because you might be surprised, you know, someone. Because someone could have been making that assumption about you that whole time. They could also be like, I want more, but I feel like I picked up when I first started dating her, she said she was strictly solo poly. And then I never questioned that. And I've just assumed it's been the case the whole time. Right. So it could be. Opportunity to have a conversation. But if it's true, like these conversations have happened, the communication has happened, it is clear, then yeah, I think that then the opportunity for communication can be around coming to a partner and saying, Hey, so like I've been thinking about this a lot and I feel like I'm entering this particular chapter where I'm curious about seeking out this type of partnership. As I do that, here are the things that I anticipate could change between us.
Jase: It could be we might spend less
Dedeker: time together, or it could be this, or it could be that, but also talking about, but in our relationship, here's also the things that I really love and that are precious to me and the things that I would hope wouldn't change if we can work together, right? So for instance, with the second question, if you have this wonderful intimate relationship where you do go to this person to disclose about your day or about your feelings, I don't see a reason why you need to arbitrarily stop doing that for the sake of being able to do that with somebody else. Because that's pretty fundamental to emotionally entwined non-monogamy is that you don't need to have just one close confidant partner. And so maybe that's something where you're like, okay, yeah, I anticipate maybe I might be shifting some of my time and some of my energy, and I might be inviting someone in to also confide in. But I also really love our deep conversations, right? And I want to maintain that. But again, having that conversation doesn't necessarily mean that's how it's all going to go down because it's like once you start inviting in new partnerships and new people and you fall in love, and especially if you're wanting to entwine, things can change, of course, sometimes a little bit out of your control. But I do think, yeah, it's connecting with existing partners to be able to have this sort of talk that marks the fact that there's a transition that acknowledges there could be changes and also there are precious things that I want us to try to preserve. I think could be helpful.
Emily: I do want to acknowledge the potential fear around having this conversation too for both parties, just because I know when big topics come up, sometimes there can be a lot of fear around that, and it can make those conversations difficult to have. And so I do think creating a space and a time within your day perhaps, or just a way in which you are emotionally regulated so that you can have those talks, I think a lot of us, skirt around issues or choose not to bring them up because they're difficult. And if there is a way for you and your partner to put yourself in a position where you are at peace and with a lot of ease and comfort so that you can have these conversations and not be fearful around the answers and just be open to all of the possibility there. Because I look at this and I'm like, yeah, I can understand a scenario in which you just don't even want to have the conversation and choose not to discuss it because there's so much fear about the unknown. What are they going to say? Are they going to want to break up? Are they going to want to change things so drastically that it's not even worth it for me to be in this relationship anymore? And that that can be very scary.
Jase: Yeah. From reading these questions, I kind of assume, like Dedeker did initially too, I think that it does seem like they're having more open conversations, but I do think this is worth bringing up because someone else's situation might be a little different. And I think like all of that's great. But now I think it is time for us to move into the kind of second part of the question of how do I seek these new relationships and how do I communicate to these new people that I'm dating more effectively? So before we get into that, we're going to take a quick break to talk about some sponsors of the show. And of course, please take a moment, listen to them. That is how we support doing this show. We have ads if you listen to them, use our promo codes in the links that does directly support our show. And then of course, if you want to support us in the most direct possible way and join our amazing community, you can go to to multiamory.com/join. And there you can get ad-free episodes and be part of our amazing community and do our video discussion groups and things like that. We've talked a lot now about, you know, negotiating your existing relationships, the need sometimes to de-escalate existing relationships to make room for new ones. But what's interesting about both of these question askers is that they've made it clear that part of the issue actually is that their existing relationships are not as escalated as they would like, right? That they're already, the first question asker
Emily: said they're seeing each other once every couple weeks and not doing sleepovers.
Jase: And then the second one said they would like to see each other more than once a week. So it seems like with their two boyfriends, maybe they're seeing them around once a week. So already they've got like the physical space. It seems like it's a little bit more of a emotional space. And again, the question ends up a little bit different in both cases in terms of what the concerns are with the existing partnership taking up energy or or whatever. But to go into, like, how do you define what it is you're looking for and how do you start trying to find a new partner who will be more like this? It's like, it's tempting to try to come up with some answer of, oh, we'll just communicate that this is what you want and all that. But I think the heart of this is that it's like dating ever, always, right? Like, anytime you're dating and the goal is a more serious, entwined relationship, which I think for most people in the normative world, that's kind of always the unspoken goal, or at least a lot of times it is. Like, that's what it is.
Dedeker: No, it's, there's only the two tracks in the more normative dating world. It's either I'm looking for my soulmate, or it's, I'm just looking for a fuck buddy. And those are the only two options that you have.
Jase: Right, right. And within the monogamous world, people have this frustration too, of like, I've got fuck buddies, and that's cool, but I'm having a really hard time connecting with people that also want.
Emily: I think we've all experienced a more serious relationship, right?
Jase: Or I've heard the opposite complaint, right? If everyone wants to like get married and I just want people to have fun with.
Emily: I just want to fuck.
Jase: Yeah.
Dedeker: Well, yeah, that sort of made me think of is, so I want to acknowledge the reality of things like desirability politics, of what your dating pool looks like when you want something different. That's not just married monogamy or just a fuck buddy, right? You know, those of us who live in this sort of funny fringe of relationships. So like there's a reality to that and I'm not going to pretend that that doesn't exist. However, also something that every I think like Jase is saying something that everybody experiences is everyone has this confirmation bias towards I'm undatable because of what I want. Sure. Right? Like oh my God it's so difficult to find someone who also wants the things that I want. And that's pretty much everybody because yeah I've seen it with people who are like I'm like, I already did the whole marriage and kids thing and I don't want to do it again, you know? And it seems like everyone I date, like, wants that now. Or someone who's like, yeah, I want my nesting partner. I want my very entangled partner, but everyone already has one, or that no one's interested in it or whatever. And I don't know how this happens other than just that, like, I think we're wired to more easily notice the negative experiences or the ways that we're having difficulty finding someone who matches with us.
Jase: I think it's a little bit of the whole, anytime you're looking for something, it's always in the last place you look. Because once you find it, you stop looking. So there is a little bit of, if you're still in that process, you are by definition not having found the thing you're looking for. So that's a little challenging.
Dedeker: Well, can I talk about the ways that I think I'm undateable? Pulling on this subject.
Jase: Should we all talk about why debt occurs undateable?
Dedeker: Yeah, let's all talk about why no.
Emily: One wants to date I highly doubt that, by the way, but okay.
Dedeker: I promise this is actually related to the question. Well, so my journey for the last, you know, like decade and a half or whatever, it's been interesting that like for a solid chunk of my non-monogamy journey as in like several years, I had like, like I identified as someone with sort of like two nesting partners where I would live kind of part of the year with one and then like part of the year with the other. And these were relationships where historically pretty close to each other as far as when they started, right? And so this whole sense of parity wasn't something I really worried about that much, right? Because I feel like for a long chunk of my poly journey, I felt like I was living this perfect polyamorous life, you know, this kind of non-hierarchical multi-nesting partner sort of life. And then, you know, in the beginning of 2022 when I had my really, really big breakup, Now I am for the first time in my life experiencing what it is like to date when I have a partner with all this history and entwinement. Where, like in the second question mentioned how I can't accelerate a new relationship to reach parity with these existing levels of intimacy and history that are already there. That's just impossible. And it sort of boggled my brain a little bit, even though this is a situation where I think this is not uncommon in the non-monogamy community, especially because of the classic example of people who've been married and monogamous for several years and then they open their relationship. Those people are also dealing with that, where they're inviting someone new into a situation where there's already so much history and entwinement and shared resources and stuff like that. And so for me, it's my first time, the past couple years, of dating with that sort of setup. And I don't know. Like, I, like, I don't know. Because, like, I do feel that sense
Dedeker: of, yeah, like, I do want to be emotionally entwined with someone new. Like, I'm still into. I'm still into that. And, yeah, like, I I totally get how this person is concerned about, like, isn't someone new going to be really intimidated by that potentially or make some assumptions, like, oh, there's probably no room for me there because of that. And I could totally see how. If I think especially in our second question, if they feel like they have a partner where they already confide in a lot and spend time with and feel really close to the worry that a new partner might assume, oh, those needs are already taken care of, and so there's no space for me here.
Emily: Yeah, I think the big difference there potentially between your situation, Dedeker, and what this person is talking about here is that you already have somebody with whom you are living and spending a lot of your life.
Dedeker: It is different. And I'm not seeking that with somebody else.
Emily: Well, exactly. And the difference is that even if somebody has a ten year relationship with someone else, but they are not seeing them on a daily basis and they are not necessarily having all of the intimacy that living with a person provides, that I think that being able to tell someone, yes, I have a really long term relationship, but it's like a really long term friendship, you know, where you're not seeing that person all the time. It's kind of, I think, similar in parallel to that. Versus somebody who you're like, But what I want is the intimacy of living with someone and all of the beauty that that creates and all of the minutiae and little things there that you get from being with someone from that intimate space. And so I do think that there's a big difference there and that maybe somebody wouldn't be as intimidated if they came in with the knowledge that, okay, this is what this person wants and
Dedeker: maybe they potentially want it with me. You know, that's interesting that you bring up the friendship piece, because that makes me think of our episode with Raina Cohen.
Dedeker: Raina Cohen, who is the author of the other significant others. If people wanna check out that episode, that was episode 486. It's titled Reimagining Life with Friendship at the Center.
Emily: And it's great, by the way.
Dedeker: And it's great. She's amazing. But yeah, her whole book is writing about people who have either intentionally or unintentionally created a life where they have a close friendship that's actually very central to their lives, and then the difficulty of then trying to date. Under that circumstance and getting people to understand, like, no, this person that maybe I'm choosing to live with or that I'm sharing finances with or that I'm doing this kind of life planning and entwinement with, they're not my romantic partner. There's still space for you. But this person is also very significant and is still going to be in my life. And, like, the difficulties of communicating around that and running into people's assumptions. So that could be a helpful one to listen to, to get some thoughts.
Jase: And ideas on all that.
Jase: Yeah, kind of how to make yourself available to those things while having something that takes up that space in your life.
Dedeker: Well, I think that leads us to like, what kind of language to use?
Jase: Yeah, I think that's kind of what I was trying to get at though, in terms of what kind of language to use is to actually imagine that you're not trying to make this work around your existing partners. Like, if you start from a place of just saying, imagine I'm polyamorous, That's my identity, regardless of what other partners I have. But what I'm looking for is this kind of relationship that can hopefully grow into something more entwined, more serious. I think starting from there actually is the way to go. And then it's kind of like the fact that you have these other partners is just circumstantial because you're not living with them, they're not taking up a huge amount of your time. Yes, you might have to address for yourself a little bit of your energy levels or how much you're able to give to the new partner. But I think that also might take some time. It might have to be finding that new partner first to start putting your energy toward that. I would say one thing that does relate to your existing partners, and one of them mentioned this, and part of the question that we cut out for time was that they're not on the apps yet. And I do think that is one thing where if your existing partnership is just good enough, if it's just satisfying enough, and I don't mean just good enough in terms of it's a bad relationship, but if they're giving you just enough of what you want that it's making you not feel motivated enough to
Jase: go seek out what you actually want, yeah, that might be worth addressing either by just saying, I need to go look for it, or maybe saying, I've got to back off from this relationship.
Dedeker: Because I want to argue with that, Jase.
Jase: Okay, yeah, please.
Dedeker: Because I think there's an argument to be made for dating from a place where you're, where a certain amount of you is satisfied. Because, like, yeah, in our first question, they mentioned how, like, the sex is really good. They are able to connect. They do have deep conversations when they're with each other. And I'm kind of like, I actually think that's not a terrible place to be dating from versus, like, I need to actively take away some of the stuff that I'm enjoying. And so now I'm dating from a little bit more of a place of need.
Jase: Yeah. Desperation. Yeah.
Dedeker: Which can lead to not great decisions.
Jase: When it comes to dating, I think.
Jase: Okay, you're right. No, no, no. I'll double down on saying then you just gotta commit to yourself if this is actually something I want, I've gotta go seek it out. I can't just kind of wait around.
Dedeker: Yeah, I think as far as what you actually say to people, I'm gonna come back around to something we've said many times on this show, which is shorthand and language can help sometimes. I'm imagining like all the shorthand people use on like, like they're dating app bios, for instance. Like, I have this nesting partner, or I've been E/M for this long, or I practice relationship anarchy or whatever. Like, that can be helpful initially. And you're always going to have to have a conversation with somebody about, hey, when you say relationship anarchy, hey, when you say nesting partner, what does that actually mean for you? How does that actually look in your day-to-day life? So I bring that up just to say that that when you're starting to seek people or date people that you might mention things like, yeah, I have these existing partners or like, I have one boyfriend that I've been with for a decade and then I have one boyfriend who's kind of new and kind of casual that eventually as you start to get closer to somebody, you're gonna have to spell out more specifically what that actually looks like in your life. And I think that's good. Like, I think that's a fundamental part of the dating process because you can't just assume If someone says, oh yeah, this boyfriend is casual, what I think casual means versus what you think casual means can be very different. Like you are going to have to get down into the granular there. And so I think that's a good thing because it's a chance to clarify to somebody, like to share the things with them that you've shared with us on a podcast and all the people listening to this podcast, right? Of like, yeah, this is what this actually looks like. You know, I'm sexually active with this person. We see each other maybe once every couple of weeks. We do some deep conversations. And also like, it's not going to escalate in this way. And I'm seeking these things, right? And like that's really good information for somebody to know. And I think that if anyone's worth their salt as far as becoming a nesting partner or a more entwined partner, they're gonna be down to have those conversations and they're gonna be down to understand the nuances of your life, not just kind of make an assumption about your life and then make a snap decision based on that.
Jase: And that's always the problem with the apps, right? Is they really encourage snap decision making. So that is always a challenge. But I do think that part of Finding success is just getting some dates happening, just getting some dates on your calendar. And so I actually wanted to do a sort of side tangent to something that I'm actually not even gonna say that this is advice, but just something to consider.
Dedeker: What are you gonna say that it is?
Jase: It's interesting to contemplate. It's interesting to contemplate and interesting to think about how this may relate to your life. And so if you wanna learn more about this, there's actually a really interesting TED Talk by Hannah Fry. So Hannah Fry is a professor of of mathematics. I have watched her on a lot of videos through the Numberphile YouTube channel. For those of you that are big math nerds out there, Numberphile is just all videos about mathematics.
Dedeker: Yeah, Jase watches math videos, like, from the comfort of his home.
Emily: Of course he does.
Dedeker: Just in his spare time, not even related to his work or anything.
Emily: Just sounds about right.
Dedeker: For the pleasure of watching a math video.
Jase: Yes. And so Hannah Fry is one of the people who's on Numberphile quite a bit. But she actually did a TED Talk called the Mathematics of Love is the name of the TED Talk. So you can look that up on YouTube. The Mathematics of Love. Of Hannah Fry. In it, she covers three different kind of mathematical principles that apply in dating. But just the second one is the one I wanted to talk about here. And this, from a algorithm point of view, I actually first heard about this in a different book that was about applying mathematical algorithms in your life. But this is called the optimal stopping problem. And so the question goes like this. If you're, say you're interviewing people for a job, the question is, if I keep interviewing more people, how do I decide when I've found as good as I can get and I should stop?
Dedeker: Right.
Jase: So it's the optimal stopping problem is this, like, how many do I have to check before I know that I've gotten about as good as I can get? You know? And that sounds so shitty to say that about people you're dating as well. This is good as it gets.
Dedeker: But no, but like that's the reality of how people think about it. Maybe not in such clinical terms, but people do wonder those things.
Emily: Yeah. Yeah.
Jase: And so the answer is 37%. So what that means is basically the way you can apply this principle, the optimal stopping problem, is you estimate what are the total number of people that I could date in my lifetime or during the time in which I will be dating during this period of how long is my interview process for this job? How long do I expect to be dating reasonably and estimate how many people will I likely date during that time? And then 37% of that, you start dating and you to reject all of them.
Dedeker: Oh.
Jase: Meaning you can date, but you don't get into a long-term. This is obviously based in monogamy where to commit means you stop. Sure.
Dedeker: Okay, but hold on for this. Hold on.
Jase: Yeah, yeah.
Dedeker: I need to catch up. I need to catch up. So as in, okay, maybe I estimate, okay, I'm going to go on dates with 100 people.
Jase: That's an easy number to work with, yeah.
Dedeker: Yes, in this chapter of my life, 100 people.
Jase: Right, right. Say over the next five years, I
Dedeker: think I could date 100 people. So as in, I need to write out the gate, reject 37 of them?
Jase: Yeah, so the first 37 people I date, I choose.
Dedeker: Or just, no, I don't want to choose. And then just, like, doesn't matter how I feel, just reject 37 of them. Go on 37 dates, reject them all.
Jase: Yeah, basically. So I know it's weird, but the idea is that you're in this data collection phase, meaning like you don't want to commit to any of them. Now, again, obviously polyamory makes this different because you're not.
Dedeker: Stopping. We don't quite have the same optimal.
Dedeker: stopping pro- We don't have a stopping problem is what I'm saying. Our stopping problem involves more advanced calculus.
Jase: Right, right. You got to find the limit of your polysaturation that happens. But the idea is like, don't stop dating until after that 37. So sure, it doesn't quite apply here. But then after that first 37%, the first person that you date who's better than anyone in that 37% That's your choice.
Dedeker: But what if the better person doesn't come along? What if you start, you would like.
Emily: to look back and you're like, oh.
Dedeker: actually, person number five, I feel like is the best so far. And I keep dating after these first 37 that I rejected, and no one's as good. But now I've already rejected number five, and they've moved along, and they already have six kids. Then what, Jase? Then what, Jase?
Jase: No, no, that is Hannah Fry.
Dedeker: What is that.
Jase: Hannah Fry? No, and she actually acknowledges that in the talk. She's like, There's kind of two problems. The one problem is.
Jase: Yes, your ideal partner shows up right away. You rejected them because they were during that 37% phase. And then you never find them and you never date anyone. If you're strictly adhering to these rules of only accepting someone who's better than all of that 37. And then your other risk is if you just happen to get your first 37 or a bunch of real duds, and then you pick the first one that's better than any of those. There's a slightly less scary dud.
Dedeker: They're only like a dud plus.
Jase: They're a dud plus, yeah.
Dedeker: So it's like- I've seen some people do that.
Jase: Done twice. Yeah, exactly.
Jase: So the whole idea of this, and that's why I'm like, I don't really say this is advice. It's more just interesting is that in a problem where you do stop once you make a choice. So that's the big difference here in polyamory. That doesn't apply. But in a situation where once you make a choice, you have stopped seeking other options, that mathematically speaking, while there are risks, you'll still end up either with nothing or with something suboptimal. But mathematically speaking, there is no other strategy that gives you a better chance of getting the best partner. And that's kind of where the maths of it comes in, right? Is that there's just no other better strategy in this case. Anyway, that's kind of an aside. It's a fun TED Talk. She's very cute and, you know, gives a lot of cute, funny examples and also talks about, like, how to be more attractive on dating apps and also how to avoid getting divorced. She talks about some Gottman research, actually. So it's a fun TED Talk. It's like 15 minutes long or something, but...
Dedeker: Okay, well, Hannah Fry, we'd love that. It's great to have you on the show.
Emily: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Dedeker: We'd love to hear about your dating experiments.
Jase: Actually, you know what? Oh my gosh. I actually think she could be really interested in the mathematics of saying, Hey, Hannah Fry, the optimal stopping problem. So cool. But what if you didn't stop? Like there's still a certain limit to how much you can date. Like it limits your ability to date more people until that one ends. Like how does the mathematics change? Actually, that'd be really cool. Okay, I'm gonna start writing my letter. Bye, see you all next time.
Dedeker: Good, okay. Okay, if there's anything I was gonna glean from our little Hannah Fry sidebar there. Actually, the data collection portion of it, I find the most interesting. And I don't think that, you know, when you know you're ready for this, you know, you're ready to open yourself up to find someone who's a more entwined partner. I don't think you need to go out and immediately reject 37 people unless you really want to do that experiment. But I do think starting from a place of, especially at the beginning of of I am just trying to collect data and just learn about myself in this chapter. Like, what is it like for me to go on some dates knowing in my head and my heart that this is what I'm trying to invite in? This is the energy that I'm seeking. This is how I'm communicating about it. And then just see what that's like for you. Like, does it change how you show up on dates? Does it change what kind of people you match with? Does it change how you show up in your other relationships, your other existing relationships? I guess being open to there being a learning process as you're learning about yourself, once you've kind of made this decision, like, okay, yes, I'm going to go on this particular journey. And yeah, I think it could be helpful. It's like, yeah, if you want to journal about that. Because I think there's just a lot of interesting information that can just come from within you once you've officially decided to make this shift.
Emily: Have the two of you seen The Matchmaker? I watched it on the plane over here to Hong Kong, and it's about a matchmaker, and essentially, clients come to her with a big list of everything that they want, and she tries to match the clients with somebody else that is another client that matches things off of that list that checks all the boxes. Like us trying to get our question askers together.
Jase: Yeah, sure. There you go.
Emily: But I think this list thing of deciding what it is that you want in a person, is limiting in a lot of ways. And I did just want to throw that out there that so often the things that you have historically dated in the past or the things that you think that you want are not necessarily always what you find is best for you in a lot of ways. I feel like currently I'm dating someone who is very, very different than a lot of the people I've dated in the past. And it's been great and really unexpected. And I think a really nice departure from many of the types of people that I've dated that have just ultimately not worked out for me in one way or another. And I didn't go into this relationship seeking out anything in particular, but then it kind of evolved and blossomed into something more that I didn't expect. And I just want to throw out there that while you are also in this data collection phase, maybe don't limit yourself to just I have in my head a list of all of the things that I want. I have in my head a list of all of the things that I want, and therefore I need to make sure that those boxes are checked. But rather, maybe I have things that I'm looking for and hoping for, and maybe the alignment of values is something that I don't want to compromise on, but everything else could just be something unexpected and something that I didn't know that I wanted before. But also the person in particular might be very unexpected from what you thought that you originally wanted. As well.
Jase: If I can bring it back to my takeaway from Hannah Fry's mathematics, and then also just kind of seeing how dating works in general, I think that when we become non-monogamous, assuming we grew up with a more monogamous mindset, yes, we probably had a period of our life where we were dating more, but we were dating in a very different mindset. So it's almost like you have to reset your 37% counter. But to stay away from just like saying you're going to reject everyone, I think the real takeaway here is that that a lot of people I see who start dating later in life, either when they open up a relationship and suddenly now they're dating, or if they've been divorced and now they're looking to date again, is there can be a lot of pressure to put on each individual date. And so it makes it harder to go on dates, like more intimidating to find people to date, or you're more likely to prescreen so hard that you're eliminating a lot of people out the gate. And I think the takeaway here is that both mathematically and also just practically speaking, the real barrier to finding the right people to date is just dating people. And so I would just advise, take pressure off of it. Don't think about it of, I need to find someone who I'm going to have this entwined, escalating relationship with. But just think about, I'm going to find people to date. I know I'm looking for that, but don't worry about each of your dates heading that way too quickly and also worrying about, I've really got to
Jase: filter down to someone who, like, already knows that they want that to just kind of get out there and date. And I know that's easier said than done, but, like, take the pressure off of it. Just go on some dates, meet people in person. If you want to pre-screen with the video call, sure, but, like, actually go on dates just to get more data for yourself and more possibilities for yourself. And like dedeker said, you're starting from a point where you're you're not desperate for any kind of affection and care because you've already got that in your life. You're actually coming in from a great place of, yeah, I'm just going to date. I'm going to see what these people are like. Maybe they're something, maybe they're not. But just doing the dating is really what it comes down to here.
Emily: Love that.
Dedeker: All right, wanting more in Washington and saying so long to Solo. Thank you so much for submitting your questions. If you would like us to put the two of you together to become friends, lovers, soulmates, co-commiserators, just let us know.
Emily: You're doubling down on this.
Dedeker: Yeah. For all of you out there on our Instagram Stories, we're going to be asking, do you currently have the level of entanglement that you desire in your partnerships? So with our Instagram Stories questions, those are always completely anonymous answers, and we do repost some of the most interesting or intriguing answers to our stories. So go to our Instagram account to check that out and to submit your answer. Also, the best place to share your thoughts with other listeners about this episode is in the episode discussion channel in our Discord server, or you can also post about it in our private Facebook group. You can get You can get access to these groups and join our exclusive community by going to multiamory.com/join. In addition, you can share with us publicly on Instagram @multiamory_podcast.
Dedeker: Multiamory is created and produced by Jase Lindgren, Emily Matlack, and me, Dedeker Winston. Our production assistants are Rachel Schenewerk and Carson Collins. Our theme song is Forms I Know I Did by Josh and Anand from the Fractal Cave EP. The full transcript is available on this episode's page on multiamory.com.